Cars with imcomplete or no service records - hiding something, or just dumb owners

[93nav]

Title says it all.

So many cars have very few service records or no records at all, is there something being hidden, or do the owners not have a clue. The cars I am looking at are from the early 90's, I assume the same thing applies to other vintages.

[WPOZZZ]

A 20+ year old car can go through many owners and some are less meticulous than others in records keeping.

[techweenie]

The number of times a seller cannot find documents (including the title!) is amazing. I've seen it a lot. Doesn't mean the person is evil; sometimes just a dingbat.

[COLB]

Almost every car -- regardless of type -- that goes through a normal dealer's hands as a trade-in will have its records trashed.

That is pretty much a universal rule.

I've heard dealers claim it is a privacy thing, but there is also the factor that you can make pretty much any claim you want if there are no substantiating documents that can refute you.

Obviously, boutique dealers that buy/sell classic cars are different. But if any of the myriad owners in an old Porsche's life was forced to trade in the 911 at Bob's Lexus to finance a new ride for the wife, the records likely went into the trash at the dealer, or at the auction house.

[whiterabbit]

Lack of records is not a red flag to me. Especially on 30 year old car. Its not like they are under warranty and still being serviced at the dealer

Its all about the condition right now when you look at the car. A 30 minute look and drive can tell you pretty much everything.

Only case where I would want to see decent records if the car had rust repair or a recent engine/trans rebuilt.

[christiandk]

Originally Posted by whiterabbit

Lack of records is not a red flag to me. Especially on 30 year old car. Its not like they are under warranty and still being serviced at the dealer

Its all about the condition right now when you look at the car. A 30 minute look and drive can tell you pretty much everything.

Only case where I would want to see decent records if the car had rust repair or a recent engine/trans rebuilt.

Personally, I would never buy a vintage P (or any car for that matter) without the servicebook and the manual and - A plus if further documentation.

The records tell the history of the car and are outmost important if you want to sell the car to another enthusiast and are essential for the complete car.

A vintage P without the books is half the price of one with, imo.

[dienstuhr]

Originally Posted by christiandk

Personally, I would never buy a vintage P (or any car for that matter) without the servicebook and the manual and - A plus if further documentation.

The records tell the history of the car and are outmost important if you want to sell the car to another enthusiast and are essential for the complete car.

A vintage P without the books is half the price of one with, imo.

I wonder if this is a widely-held view. I would certainly have preferred that my car came with the original service book and owner's manual but it didn't mean the car was worth half-price to me without them. Perhaps this is more relevant in the world of Carrera RS's and the like but a 1985 Carrera 3.2 is pretty much just a "used car" - your eyes and a good PPI will tell you all you need to know about value. The books are nice but not essential.

Having said that I bought myself a 1985 owner's manual and service book to go with my car ;-)

Cheers

d.

[techweenie]

<div class="pre-quote">
Quote de <strong>christiandk</strong>
</div>

<div class="post-quote">
<div style="font-style:italic">Personally, I would never buy a vintage P (or any car for that matter) without the servicebook and the manual and - A plus if further documentation.<br>
<br>
The records tell the history of the car and are outmost important if you want to sell the car to another enthusiast and are essential for the complete car. <br>
<br>
A vintage P without the books is half the price of one with, imo.</div>
</div>I wonder if this is a widely-held view. I would certainly have preferred that my car came with the original service book and owner's manual but it didn't mean the car was worth half-price to me without them. Perhaps this is more relevant in the world of Carrera RS's and the like but a 1985 Carrera 3.2 is pretty much just a "used car" - your eyes and a good PPI will tell you all you need to know about value. The books are nice but not essential.<br>
<br>
Having said that I bought myself a 1985 owner's manual and service book to go with my car ;-)<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
d.

I've owned and sold something like 60 Porsches since 1971, and I think 3 or 4 came with a full packet of records. Most came with a couple recent receipts or nothing at all.

I've played matchmaker on another handful of deals in the last couple of years as well.

I haven't found presence or absence of records to be particularly significant. But then, there are likely some here with more experience than me.

[christiandk]

Originally Posted by techweenie

I've owned and sold something like 60 Porsches since 1971, and I think 3 or 4 came with a full packet of records. Most came with a couple recent receipts or nothing at all.

I've played matchmaker on another handful of deals in the last couple of years as well.

I haven't found presence or absence of records to be particularly significant. But then, there are likely some here with more experience than me.

Only 5% of the cars had the original documentation and records - Or do you mean the original books? The books are a must, imo, but we all have different priorities thank God.

Cheers,

Christian

[Matt Monson]

Ten or 15 years ago, not only were Midyears and SCs unloved but longnoses were just seen as old $5-10k vintage sportscars. I think there are far more without records than with.

I've owned six 914s, five 912s, four 911s and a 924s. I think maybe 4 of them had more than 5 years worth of reciepts. Believe it or not, the 912e had the best records spanning 2 owners and a decade.

The next best was the '68 911t that had records from 1982 to 2009 when I bought it, but the car only had 42k mi on it and was parked for more than a decade of that time. In that instance the folder was only 20 pages thick and wasn't much more than oil changes and plugs, cap and rotor. Those records didn't mean much at all relative to what the car was today.

[COLB]

What was done to the car 20 years ago is an interesting archive, but doesn't tell you much about its condition today.

Obviously, the records that really matter are those that document engine or transmission rebuilds.

Apart from those, it would be nice to know the relative age of the different bits that wear or go bad -- sensors, pumps, seals, etc.

[wesleyc]

I took a gamble and bought a 95 Carrara after only a carfax and visual then a drive. It was leaking oil on the heat exchangers pretty bad and shifting horrible. After plugs. Wires. Dist caps. Rotors. Valve cover gaskets. Ssk. Shift rod. And fresh 15w-50 Mobil 1. It has turned into a new car for the last 6k miles. Second Owner had it since 97 and neglected all but oil chgs. Amazes me how someone looses interest in one of these cars. Been a joy to fix it up.

[techweenie]

Yes, I rescued a '73 E from a kid who had bought it to remove the engine to make a dune buggy. It had sat for 6 years with MA rust spreading. Took a tank flush, oil change and it fired right up and ran without dripping or smoking. No idea who had owned it, what they'd done to it, but the cars are strong enough to survive neglect. I spent about $10K making it pretty and it was on the market last year for $65K (two resales later).

A piece of paper doesn't mean a thing. It's condition, condition, condition.

[Matt Monson]

Yep, condition is king. Records mostly only matter on one owner pristine patina cars that are trading at the top of the market.

Records of major services like a gearbox or engine rebuild help make a car easier to sell but don't add much value. They only add value when they go all the way back to the beginning with a Monroney sticker and a story. Records can define provenance but they rarely do.

[johnsjmc]

I have 4 or 5 cars all the time. Move every 3 or 4 years and can,t find the receipts for the parts I put in my 993 2 months ago. I do all my own work so even larger jobs like a clutch is mostly labour and numerous smaller receipts which are easy to mix with receipts for renovation materials etc.
I might still have all the stuff from the one or two new cars/trucks I,ve bought but the vehicles are long gone.

[christiandk]

Originally Posted by techweenie

Yes, I rescued a '73 E from a kid who had bought it to remove the engine to make a dune buggy. It had sat for 6 years with MA rust spreading. Took a tank flush, oil change and it fired right up and ran without dripping or smoking. No idea who had owned it, what they'd done to it, but the cars are strong enough to survive neglect. I spent about $10K making it pretty and it was on the market last year for $65K (two resales later).

A piece of paper doesn't mean a thing. It's condition, condition, condition.

Does that mean that you would pay the same for these cars:

1) Car with paper work and service book

2) Car with no paper work and no service book

Cars are in same condition.

[93nav]

Sorry about my 'dumb owners' comment

What brought this about is on my daily driver, a 10 year old Ford, I have every record since I bought the car used, even the last wiper blade receipt.

I have inquired, looked at several 968s, if I were to find one with a recent timing belt change with documentation, vs one with no records, well, the first one I think is worth more, as much as $2k more.

What about on 996s, I would think proof of the IMS being replaced/upgraded would add several thousands of dollars in value.

So to me, records, especially recent records of major work adds value to a car, but I am still quite the novice at this.

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by 93nav

Sorry about my 'dumb owners' comment

What brought this about is on my daily driver, a 10 year old Ford, I have every record since I bought the car used, even the last wiper blade receipt.

I have inquired, looked at several 968s, if I were to find one with a recent timing belt change with documentation, vs one with no records, well, the first one I think is worth more, as much as $2k more.

What about on 996s, I would think proof of the IMS being replaced/upgraded would add several thousands of dollars in value.

So to me, records, especially recent records of major work adds value to a car, but I am still quite the novice at this.

Receipts for specific work are important with some cars.

Personally, if I were looking at a 996 that had the factory-developed IMS bearing replaced by an untested aftermarket part, it would diminish, not add value. But that's just my humble opinion.

Most changes to 911s that are widely considered to be improvements (like Carrera tensioner upgrade) are self evident.

In the past weeks, I've seen a couple of early 964 cars with no documentation of the (desired, almost mandatory) head cylinder reworking. In each case, a receipt for that work would have had a big influence on purchase decision.

993s have specific vulnerabilities. Factory recall of engine harness on '95s, and any prior 'secondary air' work on '96-98 is important.

But these later cars are fully tracked in PCNA computers and a friendly relationship with the service manager can get you a printout of the entire history from delivery.

[bwall]

Originally Posted by techweenie

But these later cars are fully tracked in PCNA computers and a friendly relationship with the service manager can get you a printout of the entire history from delivery.

I've asked service managers for printouts on different occassions and have always gotten nothing. As in every time. I asked politely, with a tone of voice that indicated I would be most grateful, almost begging. Nothing. One time I went as far as to offer money ($100 IIRC) but still got the same answer 'nothing there' and left me convinced that there was nothing they could do.

So, do the service managers have discretion? Or how do I get to be one of their friends?

And yeh, I've been surprised how idiotic some sellers can be. Case in point--about a year ago I looked at a 1969 911 that had been in the family since 1970. The seller's father was a pilot and had made notes of everything (!) ever done to the car since 1970. Oil changes, motor rebuilds, tires, brakes, along with dates and mileage you name it, just a dream to go though. The records stopped in 1998, the same year that the 50 year old+ son took ownership. I asked him for anything from the last 15 years (!), nothing. Just absolutely nothing--he probably thought his dad was a bit loony for making all those notes. . . .

[racer]

On the other hand, do you keep records of all your appliances? How many needles you replaced on your record player? What years and which lights in your house needed bulbs replaced?

See? to some peope, the minutia matters because they want to add or reduce a value for something. To some, yes, having a full story of a 50 year old car is a nirvana.. to someone else, "who cares"...

I prefer a car with a lineage, but I am not beholden to it.