Recent full engine/trans rebuild, new paint.

[SilberUrS6]

1980 Porsche 911SC

If it's not a MotorMeister rebuild, then $20k is pretty good money for this car.

From the ad, it seems like most of the documentation from the rebuilds/repaints exists. IMO, this is an upper-20s car.

[Matt Monson]

No red fan. Unlikely Motormeister. Great color.

[COLB]

Bargain.

This will sell fast.

[sprbxr]

It's priced fairly for what it is. Without seeing the car in person your opinion means nothing.

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

1980 Porsche 911SC

If it's not a MotorMeister rebuild, then $20k is pretty good money for this car.

From the ad, it seems like most of the documentation from the rebuilds/repaints exists. IMO, this is an upper-20s car.

[sprbxr]

This is exactly why pelican internet appraisers opinions are meaningless. You can't put an accurate value on a car without seeing it in person.
This is what the seller sent me:
Issues with this car:
- Glass-in repaint
- The fuel distributor has a weep at one of the fuel lines out.
- The alternator light flickers intermittently, which means the voltage regulator is iffy, or the alternator needs to be rebuilt. It's an almost new battery, but because of the quirk in the charging system, it doesn't hold a charge for more than a week or 10 days. I have the car on a "battery tender." What's awesome about the car is that if the battery is charged, if you put the key in it, whether it's been sitting for a day or 3 months, it fires right up. So reliable. Such a joy.
- Radio is kaput. It's a nice period Blaupunkt. Before it croaked, I listened to NPR on it. Now, I just listen to the RPMs.
- Turn signals are awesome. Except when you have the headlights on, when the right turn signal just goes _________.
- Windshield washer pump is inoperable.
- The car has black leather sport seats. The driver's seat has a split seam in the seat bottom. Dashboard has small cracks but is in overall pretty good condition.
- Water enters driver's side footwell in heavy rain or when washing the car. A window seam is likely not watertight.

[christiandk]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

No red fan. Unlikely Motormeister. Great color.

Great color on a 964 or 993 that is born with it

[aircool]

I agree with sprbxr, a hard to gauge worthiness on initial ad. Even with issues owner pointed out to sprbxr, there are probably plenty more. And, as per the Dane, the color is an issue. Nice color but not for an 80 SC. I think the more we (community) throw high prices out there. The more we contribute to market speculators. My two cents.

[COLB]

I think the more we (community) throw high prices out there. The more we contribute to market speculators. My two cents.

I don't think the tail is wagging the dog.

[COLB]

This is exactly why pelican internet appraisers opinions are meaningless. You can't put an accurate value on a car without seeing it in person.

Its an internet Marketplace Discussion forum. Besides, "accurate" is in the eye of the beholder. Most of the people on here describe cars in terms of range, and acknowledge there is guesswork involved with the limited info available. But even if you had two hours to go through the car, there is STILL guesswork involved, and "value" is always relative -- which is why value assessments and auction outcomes vary widely.

Frankly, your post sounds like you are bearing a little bit of grudge over the posts about the car you were selling. Just saying.

This is what the seller sent me:
Issues with this car:
- Glass-in repaint
- The fuel distributor has a weep at one of the fuel lines out.
- The alternator light flickers intermittently, which means the voltage regulator is iffy, or the alternator needs to be rebuilt. It's an almost new battery, but because of the quirk in the charging system, it doesn't hold a charge for more than a week or 10 days. I have the car on a "battery tender." What's awesome about the car is that if the battery is charged, if you put the key in it, whether it's been sitting for a day or 3 months, it fires right up. So reliable. Such a joy.
- Radio is kaput. It's a nice period Blaupunkt. Before it croaked, I listened to NPR on it. Now, I just listen to the RPMs.
- Turn signals are awesome. Except when you have the headlights on, when the right turn signal just goes _________.
- Windshield washer pump is inoperable.
- The car has black leather sport seats. The driver's seat has a split seam in the seat bottom. Dashboard has small cracks but is in overall pretty good condition.
- Water enters driver's side footwell in heavy rain or when washing the car. A window seam is likely not watertight.

It IS a little odd to go through the effort of a bare metal repaint, but not take the glass out -- especially if you are changing colors. But a bare metal repaint is still better than most "resprays". You are totally correct that this is something you need to assess in person.

A new Alternator is about $370 with your own labor. $50 for the washer pump. Window seals: $7-30 per part.

Fuel Distributor line weeping -- could be a $1 crush washer ($.05 in bulk). Maybe just needs tightening, though you'd expect the PO to have tried that. Maybe a $80-150 fuel line. A rebuilt distributor is big money.

Hinky front blinker -- probably corrosion -- a few minutes with a wire brush. Maybe a wiring issue that could be the devil to troubleshoot & fix.

These type issues are the uncertainties inherent in buying any 30-40 year old car -- it is not a game for the faint of heart. And a PPI isn't generally going to tell you whether the solution is a $1 fix or a significant expense.

Even concours cars don't come with guarantees. And I still think the car is a great buy at $20k.

If you WANT a concours car with a windows out bare-metal repaint, an outstanding interior, perfect mechanicals -- with recent rebuilt engine and transmission -- and all functioning accessories then you are talking about a car in the $30s.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by sprbxr

This is exactly why pelican internet appraisers opinions are meaningless. You can't put an accurate value on a car without seeing it in person.
This is what the seller sent me:
Issues with this car:
- Glass-in repaint
- The fuel distributor has a weep at one of the fuel lines out.
- The alternator light flickers intermittently, which means the voltage regulator is iffy, or the alternator needs to be rebuilt. It's an almost new battery, but because of the quirk in the charging system, it doesn't hold a charge for more than a week or 10 days. I have the car on a "battery tender." What's awesome about the car is that if the battery is charged, if you put the key in it, whether it's been sitting for a day or 3 months, it fires right up. So reliable. Such a joy.
- Radio is kaput. It's a nice period Blaupunkt. Before it croaked, I listened to NPR on it. Now, I just listen to the RPMs.
- Turn signals are awesome. Except when you have the headlights on, when the right turn signal just goes _________.
- Windshield washer pump is inoperable.
- The car has black leather sport seats. The driver's seat has a split seam in the seat bottom. Dashboard has small cracks but is in overall pretty good condition.
- Water enters driver's side footwell in heavy rain or when washing the car. A window seam is likely not watertight.

Well, Justin - luckily you're not relying on my opinion to purchase a classic car. These issues, other than the glass-in repaint (why go down to bare metal and not take the glass out? That doesn't make much sense) seem to be worth about $1000 in parts and a bit of sweat equity. The glass-in paint knocks off some (but still retains value because nice color and new paint) and the minor issues knock off a little more. But still, from high twenties to mid twenties. Still a bargain.

Anyone who has been in this forum for any length of time will hear the same thing, but I'll repeat it because you seem to have missed it the first ten or twenty times it's been said:

Much of the discussion we do here is based on the idea that any issues not mentioned in the ads seen are either minor, easy fixes, or stuff that would be discovered in a PPI, and that would indicate a price adjustment. Because we shouldn't need to type that out explicitly every single time we discuss a car.

Feel free to bust my b@lls all you like on my opinion about the valuations of these cars. You'll find out soon enough how far that takes you.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by COLB

Its an internet Marketplace Discussion forum. Besides, "accurate" is in the eye of the beholder. Most of the people on here describe cars in terms of range, and acknowledge there is guesswork involved with the limited info available. But even if you had two hours to go through the car, there is STILL guesswork involved, and "value" is always relative -- which is why value assessments and auction outcomes vary widely.

Frankly, your post sounds like you are bearing a little bit of grudge over the posts about the car you were selling. Just saying.

Yeah, that's the way I read it too. But it that doesn't matter at all, really. None of us are professional Porsche appraisers, so its all just a bit of conversation. And Justin isn't used to the sort of "shorthand" we speak here - the unspoken idea that hidden issues are either minor, and rate minor deductions to purchase price, or are major and will be revealed (hopefully) on professional PPI. I don't any one of us has ever suggest that anyone buy a car sight-unseen unless they are willing to accept the consequences for doing so. And the consequence for a worst-case is the money differential between selling price and parts-car value. If you're not willing to set fire to that amount of money, never buy sight-unseen. You and I might understand this as a baseline, but Justin doesn't realize this. If he sticks around, he'll figure it out.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by COLB

I don't think the tail is wagging the dog.

I agree. I think we (those of us that discuss the car prices in this forum) are actually continually surprised by asking prices. If I had to be brutally honest, I think most of us here are at least three months behind the curve.

[COLB]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

I agree. I think we (those of us that discuss the car prices in this forum) are actually continually surprised by asking prices. If I had to be brutally honest, I think most of us here are at least three months behind the curve.

Agree. Although I wouldn't credit car dealers with omniscience, they are still businessmen -- and presumably are not so stupid as to price their cars so exorbitantly that they sell nothing -- and then go out of business.

They are pricing cars on the ragged edge because some people are paying that money.

Either people who have enough money to not get bent out of shape over $5-10k for the exact car they want, or just uninformed buyers. I wouldn't underestimate the latter.

MSRP exists in part because there are people who pay it.

We see prices and think they are crazy. 99 out of 100 may think it is crazy -- but it only takes one.

[PushingMyLuck]

Do you need to remove the engine to replace the alternator?

[sprbxr]

Grudge ? Maybe. All I know is The numbers you guys spit out are a joke without seeing the car you are critiquing in person. In the process, you probably scare away potential buyers. That's life. Anyone who is serious will do there homework and get out from behind their computer.

You placed a value of 25k on my car and a value of "high twenties" on this car that has far more issues than mine. Whatever. Those that took the time to look at my car in person knew exactly what they were paying for. The German buyer flew in to look at three cars and said mine was far nicer than any of the others. The white/pasha car sold for 28k and is headed back to Germany. A dealer bought it. He felt like there was a lot of room left for him to make money on this car even after shipping.

Btw. Don't tell me what I understand and what I don't understand. Your shorthand and expert opinions on values is just that. Your opinion. Without seeing these cars you are evaluating, everything you say is a joke. You are basing your value on vague descriptions, optimistic pics and your predetermined idea of what you think these cars should sell for.

You see the ads and asking prices but do you ever have solid evidence of the final sales prices?

You guys may not like what I have to say. That is fine with me. I'm sure there are many more like me that have the same feeling as me but would just assume keep their opinions to themselves and not add fuel to the fire.

[COLB]

Originally Posted by sprbxr

Grudge ? Maybe. All I know is The numbers you guys spit out are a joke without seeing the car you are critiquing in person. In the process, you probably scare away potential buyers. That's life. Anyone who is serious will do there homework and get out from behind their computer.

Well, let's just shut down the Internet, then. Last I checked, it isn't anyones job on this board to protect the interests of any seller on this board -- you or otherwise.

You took advantage of free advertisement on a public board -- and I presume this helped you ultimately sell your car for close to the price you wanted. Sorry you took offense at part of the process. If a "buyer" got scared away over Internet chat, then I guess he wasn't a real buyer anyway, was he?

You placed a value of 25k on my car and a value of "high twenties" on this car that has far more issues than mine. Whatever. Those that took the time to look at my car in person knew exactly what they were paying for. The German buyer flew in to look at three cars and said mine was far nicer than any of the others. The white/pasha car sold for 28k and is headed back to Germany. A dealer bought it. He felt like there was a lot of room left for him to make money on this car even after shipping.

Interesting. Sounds like the German presumably paid somewhere in the neighborhood of $4-6 in transaction costs to acquire your car, and that is before taxes. I thought you would get your price if you waited long enough for the "right" buyer and it sounds like you found him. And he effectively paid a huge premium over what even you thought the car was worth.

Btw. Don't tell me what I understand and what I don't understand. Your shorthand and expert opinions on values is just that. Your opinion. Without seeing these cars you are evaluating, everything you say is a joke. You are basing your value on vague descriptions, optimistic pics and your predetermined idea of what you think these cars should sell for.

You see the ads and asking prices but do you ever have solid evidence of the final sales prices?

You are scattershooting -- it is not clear exactly who you are mad at, but presumably all of the people who post about values in ways you disagree with, and specifically those who were skeptical about your price, and might have "soured" your deal. No one has an obligation to shill for sellers, and there was nothing personal about it.

On your last sentence there, if you have a database of prices for cars bought and sold, with all the details on the cars in question, then buy all means -- share it. Since no one has perfect knowledge of sales prices, are we all then banned from discussing the market?

That's absurd. THe whole purpose of the board -- as far as I can tell -- is to talk about the Porsche Market, to better understand it. Exactly how do you do this without discussing cars for sale, the asking prices, and whether they are appropriate?

You guys may not like what I have to say. That is fine with me. I'm sure there are many more like me that have the same feeling as me but would just assume keep their opinions to themselves and not add fuel to the fire.

I'm sure there ARE a number of people trying to sell cars in the Marketplace, on Ebay, and Craigslist that would prefer people not publicly nitpick the cars they are trying to get top dollar far.

And frankly, it is useful and interesting when they get involved with the dialogue.

But unless you have some evidence that some poster is intentionally undermining a car for personal gain -- like making false claims to scare away buyers so they can lowball it -- then I don't understand your anger.

If it is all a joke, then what difference does it make?

[COLB]

Originally Posted by PushingMyLuck

Do you need to remove the engine to replace the alternator?

Why do you ask questions you can find the answers to in 30 seconds?

I'm being serious. This is why people respond to you the way they do.

Click the Tech Info tab, look for tech articles, look for electrical, scroll done to the "how to" on replacing an alternator -- read it. Find your answer.

To show I am not trying to be a jerk, I will even give you the link:

Pelican Technical Article: 911 Alternator and Fan Replacement & Upgrade

If that doesn't do it, search the tech forum.

But don't ask the question again with another post on the tech forum -- because that is obnoxious. And if you do it, people will tell you so.

[sprbxr]

All of the people that looked at the car after seeing it on Pelican wanted a nice car for less than 20k. Had more serious interest from other sites.

[Matt Monson]

I'm beginning to think Christian isn't the only originality nazi around here. Yes, this car was repainted in a color other than original. But it was painted an awesome Porsche color and it was not Guards Red. I bet it is easier to sell than an otherwise identical GR car.

My old '70T was on its 4 paint job, and three color changes, when I sold it. Wasn't even a point of discussion. When it was restored it was bare metal back to original.

Mark my words the same is coming for SCs and Carreras. Original paint cars already carry a premium. But how many of these $20-30k cars we are seeing have had at least 25-35% of their panels repainted? Who cares if it is in original color? It's not original paint.

I would hazard to guess that some of these cars selling around $30k that you all told me were overpriced sold there because of original paint, even in GR. as this thing goes along original paint is going to become a big value divider with the high dollar cars being both low miles and original paint. A low mile car with a cosmetic accident and a fender and bumper repaired and repainted will take a decent ding over their perfect brethren.

The good buys are gonna be well tended cars with solid mechanicals that have decent driver quality resprays. If that doesn't interest you get ready to open your checkbook.

[aircool]

I don't think the tail is wagging the dog.

You're right, I was overestimating the influence this forum has over all those people who post questions like "What is my Porsche worth?" or "I am looking at a Porsche, what should a pay for this one?" I guess thats why none of us are quick to respond to them nor do they take our "estimates" seriously.

You're right we have no influence over what those guys are paying for Porsches nowadays, I guess thats why its so easy to just throw a number out there regardless of the condition of the car.

Actually I am just upset I waited so long to buy another Porsche, that now I have to pay big money. I guess one is enough... for now