Selling original 1957 A Speedster

[TPorsche912]

I have been asked to sell an exceptional 1957 T1 Speedster and am looking for opinions on asking price. The car is a one owner since 1966 with full documentation in the form of an owner kept logbook of every detail along with a folder of every receipt from 1966 forward. The car is a So. Cal and Arizona car during its life and has never had any rust. Here's the kicker. In 1970 the owner replaced the original engine with a Super 90 engine. In 1985 the engine was fully built by Competition Engineering in Altadena, Ca with new parts and totally balanced, etc. That is one of my dilemma's with the car since it is no longer # matching. The car underwent a 3 yrs cosmetic restoration in 2003 and is as new in all respects. Also, on the COA from Porsche, the interior is listed as black, while the car is now sporting a saddle interior. The market over the last year seems to put the car somewhere between $275k - $375k but just don't know how the changes will affect the car even with it's rarity, history, and near new condition. Suggestions?

[CountD]

That is one beautiful car. I wouldn't really worry that much about the fact that it has the wrong motor. Nowadays, very few come up for sale that don't have a mess of stories. Logbooks, receipts, and ownership provenance for almost 50 years makes a huge difference and a plus. With a car like this, sure there are some people that will get twisted over the fact that it has the wrong motor but there are just as many that will see this car as a gem that rarely comes up for sale.

Car is amazing, from the Southwest and all records (almost). I would go for top dollar. Why not? You can always come down. I doubt you'll have to though.

PS. Don't go by the COA as the last word. I'd say they are a shoot in the dark at best. Obviously, in the past 60 years the interior may have been done. Maybe it was to the wrong color. Maybe it wasn't. The COA can't be held as being the absolute truth. Plus, the interior is an easy fix.

[Colour me gone]

That is an awesome car!!!!! First if I didn't have to sell I wouldn't and if I did I'd sell the farm to keep it

I'm with CountD full price all day long. If $375K is top price try $385K. You can always come down if the deal works

Awesome car and good luck

John

[matt930s]

Wow.

MattR

[TPorsche912]

Thanks everyone for the positive comments on the car. I'm certain the owner would be very pleased since this was his baby for all those years. It feels like an honor just to drive the car, and out of all the Porsche's I've owned and driven, this one certainly gets the most attention. It is such a nice driver that you can't help but smile from ear to ear going down the road. 2 years ago I sold my 930 Turbo at a deep discount due to a rebuilt title. The previous owner was involved in a parking lot incident that damaged the right rear quarter. Not enough to even require a new tire, but enough to give the car a branded title. It had 54k original miles and was a rare sunroof delete car. I convinced myself that the branded title was going to be a big problem selling the car, so I took the first reasonable offer. I've regretted that decision ever since and swore I wouldn't do it again. That's why I am now asking for advice from the Porsche community on this car. I still feel that the rarity and such complete documentation adds a great value to the car. Naturally I have the number of the original engine both on the COA and in the owners log book. Having read the Pelican forums for many years I know it's not totally out of the question that the original motor isn't still out there somewhere waiting to be reunited with it's home. I will look forward to more comments.

[TPorsche912]

Here are a couple of pics taken during the early stages of the restoration done in 2003. As you can see, it was a bare metal restoration and confirms the total lack of corrosion anywhere on the car. Those are the original floors showing in the interior shot.

[overrestored]

overall it looks like a very nice car. Fixing a few minor issues would help you get top dollar... take into account that I have won more than a dozen best of show awards with 356 cars and am stupidly obsessive about 356A cars in particular... (ignore me as you see fit is probably what I should say!)

1)
THE WHEELS. If they are original chrome German Lemmerz or KPZ and were ordered with the car then keep them as that is kinda rare. I suspect though, that they are Brazilian aftermarket because they look too wide and too deep dished. They look like 5x15 rather than 4.5x15. Find a set of original German KPZ or Lemmerz 4.5jx15 (date coded on the face of the rim under the hubcap area)to match the month of the car or one month earlier and a matched set is best... but just set of KPZ or Lemmerz even without being correct is better than brazilian chrome. Don't mix and match brands as they look different from each other. Get this set of german wheels painted the correct very FINE metallic silver finish. if you can see the metallic... it is too big. research the CORRECT silver finish. Add the little wire valve stem retainer clips. This wheel change alone will really help the car look like it did in 1957.


2) DASH
The Tach looks wrong ( I could be wrong)... but I'm not familiar with a tach where the green starts at 2500 and goes to 5500 . The correct 356A normal 1600 tach should have the green going from 2500 to 4500... and the red going from 4500 to 5000. I suspect that perhaps the tach was rebuilt and the face changed. this isn't a big deal... it just stuck out to me because I've paid attention to stupidly fine detail on these cars for the past several decades. It only makes a difference when selling for absolute top dollar... or at a national concours. of any of my remarks... this is the one you can ignore first as it is pretty obsessive.

Take off the steering wheel cover so people can see the wheel. Steering wheel covers... in combination with the chrome wheels...and the weber carb/chrome air cleaners looks too 1980's.. top dollar 356 people don't want that.



3 THE ENGINE
Wrong engine obviously... but the engine appears to have an incorrect distributor for a super 90.
It looks like a VW unit... maybe an 009. Should be a Bosch VJ/VJR BR 18 I'm pretty sure... Carbs should be Solex 40P11's with knecht painted silver wire mesh aircleaners on a super 90. These look like Webers and those chrome air cleaners... well... not right on a 356 and REALLY start setting alarms off in my mind.

Paint the blue coil black... get the correct decal from Brad Ripley. Better yet... find an OG coil... they are a tiny bit bigger diameter... but that again is pretty anal and only the most obsessive 356 buyers at the very top of the food chain will know this.

The long spark plug connectors on the car are nice... they are rare now.


THE TRIM
License light looks like an early repo and a bit too wavy on top. There is a beautiful repro made now... with correct stampings etc.... It could be that I am just seeing something weird in the reflections... of the bottom of the engine lid... if the chrome on top is nice and flat with no waviness or polishing grooves under the chrome you are probably ok and it is just an odd photo.

Check to see that all the light lenses are orig not repo. The car has the correct bumper rubber inside the aluminum trim... great!... this is often wrong now on a lot of cars... nice to see that the ends are formed correctly (by hand)

side mirrors are wrong... and in the wrong location... not much you can do about that though... but it does affect value when searching for top dollar


The car looks like a fantastic specimen... easy to dial in to being perfect. The engine being wrong is bad... but the fact that it is a super 90 is good... so kinda balances a bit especially if it is a CORRECTLY detailed super 90. Europeans won't be your top dollar buyer because of the missing engine though... pretty much an american buyer I suspect.

Details separate the men from the boys on these cars lately... like corvettes. This car has a ton of potential though with just the most minor of fixes. That effort would be paid off in spades.

at the end of the day.. you just want to eliminate things that are wrong... you want the car to have the features and details it came with when new. if a buyer can find something incorrect... they will challenge your price for each little incorrect issue. so the more things you correct... the less likely they are to knock your top dollar price down. Most high dollar buyers will bring an expert 356 guy with them to inspect the car... and all flaws will be pointed out.

the only things I see that can't be easily fixed... are the missing engine and the side mirrors. the rest will be less than 2500-3000 bucks to get right... and add a ton of authenticity to the car.

Cant see the nose of the car in the photos... so didn't make any comments about that or under the car or the trunk etc... but same general message applies to these areas. perfection gets really anal and one person's perfect is another person's average.

Needs correct for 1957 tools for top dollar... and correct jack... and date matched spare... and well... you get the idea!

average speedsters are valued at 208 to 246k according to Hagerty insurance. fixing things moves a car upward very fast pending bondo, gaps, etc.... but missing engine holds back a lot. This car looks a lot better than average if the details are corrected

Wait for the auctions this month before deciding anything a out price... as there are a few 356's for sale in AZ and you will need current information. Speedsters have leveled off in appreciation... and or dropped about 40k in value in the past 6 months (also according to Hagerty insurance.... and depending on year)....so I don't know what the near future holds.

Good luck with the sale.

[overrestored]

Also... Sports Car Market puts 56-8 speedsters at about 200-250k in better than average (#2) condition... and says that the market has climbed about 6% in the past year. ( I just got their price guide sent to me last week...)

I personally won't speculate on price... because I am almost always wrong.

check the competition... price accordingly!

Good luck with the sale.

[mattC2993]

I looked at all the 356s at last years Arizona auctions. While I didn't analyze actual selling prices (only the auction house's expected selling price range) people expect a lot of $$$ for cars with obvious defects let alone repro trim. non-matching engines, etc. In a good market you should do well although an investment of $10 or 20k might pay off if you are so inclined to put in the extra work. The Arizona auctions run next week so we'll see where things are headed. I should have bought that $100K project Speedster a couple of years ago

[TPorsche912]

Thanks guys for the detailed analysis of the car. That is exactly the info I'm looking for to determine where to go with the car. The car is located a very short distance from the auctions next week in Scottsdale. When the decision was made last Nov. to sell the car, that was my first suggestion for marketing. The owner was adamant that it was "out of the question". Didn't want strangers prodding and poking on the car, and it has been entrusted to me and me alone. Just how it is.
Let me address some of your suggestions and difficulties with the car. Yes I do have the original date stamped wheels. They are stamped 10/56 which would certainly be close to the birth date of 1/57. Yes the original Talbot Berlins are not original to the car, but a very likely upgrade from back in the day and quite expensive today. Do you think that this would be the most minor of problems? The car does have the original complete tool kit and proper jack, and as above, there are five original wheels. I don't know if I mentioned, but I have every receipt for the car going all the way back to 1966, and the gauges were rebuilt a long time ago by N. Hollywood, so that may have been the change time on the faces. In June of 1985 the Weber conversion was done. I do have the original Solex's. In Oct. 1985 the engine was totally built by Competition Engineering in Altadena, Ca. New crank, balanced , etc. The original engine # on the car was P64143. The current engine is P716713, which is from 1964. There is a very slight possibility that the original may be stored away somewhere since the original wheels, Solex's and the original Leitz luggage rack were squirreled away in a separate garage. Haven't had time to complete an archeological dig yet. The documentation on the car is far better than anything I've ever seen and includes almost every time anything was touched on the car. Every oil change, plug change, suspension parts purchased and installed, you name it. It's either there in the hand written log or the folder of receipts. I've seen so many Porsche's that look really good, but you never know what the life of the car has been. This car has all those details in spades, and most of the work done on the car was performed by well known shops with great reputations. I will attach a few more photo's and appreciate any further comments. I need to get the car sold and put the owners mind at ease. Another item that might help the sell, you tell me, is that the car has its own enclosed trailer and most of the long distance shows where the car has been shown were done using the trailer. Good or bad? Forgot to mention. On 6/87 the car was totally converted over to 12v electricals with all pheripherals included. Lights, generator, coil, wipers, regulator, etc etc. Does that help or hurt?

[MrAlien]

Its obviously not an original car, more details on the engine would help, perhaps they are somewhere in the documentation? It seems this car is more of a restomod, and those are really hard to put a price on. sure you could fix a few original details, but whats that really worth on a non original engine car?

[TPorsche912]

Not sure why you could call it a resto-mod. It's a two owner car, the last for nearly 50 years. Meticulously maintained with full documentation to back that up. Confirmed rust free car with recent very high quality cosmetic restoration and pics to confirm.
I used to restore early Corvettes and I can't begin to tell you how many of those cars had the wrong engine primarily because it was always much cheaper to just go out and buy a better used engine than to rebuild the original. It just wasn't that important back in the 60's, or at least it seemed better to go for more horsepower, than to keep an original anemic engine. That's what happens when manufacturers improve and update an existing motor. The swap is better than the rebuild, and just as easy and certainly less time consuming. Blow your engine on Sat, replace it on Sunday and away you go.
Back in the day I actually traded cars and motors with a guy. I had a '59 Vette, he had a '65 425 HP 396 Coupe. He wanted to go drag racing, so he got my '59 and kept the 396 engine, i got the '65 and put in my worn 327 from the '59. Win Win right. At the time it felt like it, but I cringe now when I think of what we did to the long term value of two Vettes. I had another guy whose 425 HP 409 in his '61 Bubble top Chevy wasn't running right. He just needed his transportation back so I traded him a worn out, but running 283 for the 409 that ended up only having two bent exhaust valves. We were both tickled pink. Not so much now.
I guess my point is that things happened back then that would make us all cry today, and it certainly wasn't done out of mischief, but to improve on what you already had. Porsche Speedsters back then were known as the closest thing to a race car coming out of Stuttgart, but they didn't have a prayer against American muscle on the streets. If I had a Speedster back then, I probably would have been very tempted to just swap in a later more powerful engine if one was available. Not trying to write a documentary here about the 60's, but I sure do understand the owners thought process when he changed the motor in this Speedster in 1970. With all the documentation, I can tell you that the original engine was well maintained, and didn't need to be changed for any major problems. A newer, better, more HP engine was available and he grabbed it. It doesn't show any malcontent on his part and certainly in that time frame didn't create a resto-mod, but a better car. I think everything that's been done to this car was with the intent of creating a better car. I've owned 6 volt cars and I can tell you that it gets scary trying to drive at night, constantly revving the engine to see the next corner approaching. I can see the logic of upgrading the car to 12v. I just wonder how many early cars have been maliciously modified to make them look totally original. There was a Speedster sold on Ebay last year that looked like it had been half way into a crusher when someone yelled stop. It was a rusty, nearly useless shell only and sold for as I remember around $53k - $57k. It brought that number because it still had an original vin plate on the car. I suppose with enough money it will be brought back from way beyond dead, but you have to wonder when, where, and how it will show back up. There has to be some value on this Speedster even if it's only 95% original rather than call it a resto-mod.
No offense intended, just expressing my point of view. I am not wanting to start any arguments, but only want true opinions on the value of the car for resale purposes knowing what it is and why it's that way. I am not a broker that deals in classic Porsche's but only a guy trying to do a favor for a friend and do it to the best of my ability.

[mattC2993]

If you don't want to send it to auction join the 356 Registry and advertise it there. I'm a member.

[CountD]

Originally Posted by TPorsche912

I used to restore early Corvettes and I can't begin to tell you how many of those cars had the wrong engine primarily because it was always much cheaper to just go out and buy a better used engine than to rebuild the original. It just wasn't that important back in the 60's, or at least it seemed better to go for more horsepower, than to keep an original anemic engine. That's what happens when manufacturers improve and update an existing motor. The swap is better than the rebuild, and just as easy and certainly less time consuming. Blow your engine on Sat, replace it on Sunday and away you go.

Words of wisdom, right on right here.

[overrestored]

Originally Posted by mattC2993

If you don't want to send it to auction join the 356 Registry and advertise it there. I'm a member.

I second this remark.

nobody cares about the trailer sell it separately

Front bumper rubber trim in the aluminum strip is wrong... shouldn't be tucked in... ends should look more like rear.

Repro gas sending unit...

front bumper overrider support arms appear to be chrome... should be painted silver as should rears...

12 volt is bad for value... makes car seem wrong yet again...

Lots to fix... but easily done with time and not much funds.

I suspect a lot of hardware may be wrong based on what I am seeing... Hard to find original hardware with correct markings.

Sorry to say... but this car in this condition would best be sold in an auction setting if you don't fix all the 80's style mods. otherwise you are going to get hammered by whatever experts show up with the buyer.

The only thing really not worth doing is trying to change the mirrors... since they are already in the wrong location... this would require repainting the fenders... not worth the mis-matched paint... just leave them.

it can easily be a really nice car... but you are going to get hammered about 1/3 off of top real potential value in the shape it is now if it isn't fixed... unless it is sent through an auction where you might get lucky depending on the room.

GLWS

[overrestored]

yikes... just saw the engine turned headlight buckets. get rid of those puppies!... just paint them correctly. Really cool relic of the 80's speedster style... but none of that helps value!

[CountD]

overrestored seems to know what he is talking about. I would listen to this, but still shoot for the stars - and let someone else deal with all the mods as it will be a labor of love for the new owner who will gladly take on this work or not and leave it as-is. The car is awesome. Wish I had $250K.

[TPorsche912]

overrestored: I appreciate your thorough and honest evaluation. Many of the small things you have noted are a quick fix. I am currently restoring a 912 and have everything available to correct any finish details and am quite comfortable doing those. Should the original wheels, once restored, be put back on the car, or just available? Not sure I want to pull all the tires if not necessary. Time does matter to me. Same thing with the Leitz luggage rack.
I can easily pull the light buckets and get rid of the engine turning, even though I think it's kinda cool. I am an old school hot rod guy too.
As for the 12v conversion. I'm not quite sure about undoing those changes. I have the detailed invoice for all the items that were changed during the conversion, but looks very time consuming to change out all the bulbs, generator, coil, regulator, on and on. I certainly don't want to let loose any gremlins that aren't running around anywhere now with everything working so well. Remember, this is not my car, and this is a favor, not a paid commission. I have no way of determining what is and what is not OEM on the car, such as the front rubber insert and the lenses. You have helped tremendously in pointing out the details as you see them.
The engine currently purrs like a kitten. Is having the original Solex's available but not installed acceptable?
I'll hold onto the trailer until the car sells and Reliable comes and loads the car, or not.

I am still struggling with the fact that all these things are needed for the car to bring a decent price. My entire career I've dealt with supply and demand issues. The lower the supply, generally means the higher the price. Think Cabbage Patch or Beanie. Boy did that just date me. The other side of my life has been in restoration work. Furniture, cars, buildings, houses, etc. I know the value of good bones. I've had correspondence from other restorers relating to this car and they have all told me how rare it is to find a rust free example so well documented.
I fully understand the value of an auction setting. When faced with winning or losing the little things quickly turn into tiny things and then tiny things into not mattering at all. I get that. There is only one Speedster available in Scottsdale this year. I would assume that there will be more than one buyer. Do the losers all go away and pout or do they continue looking for a car worthy of purchase? How many Speedsters are out there and how long do they want to wait for a perfect car? I guess I thought this was going to be a little easier than it's turning out to be with so few cars available and the market continuing to escalate in price.
Maybe I should just get a disco ball for the garage, put on some Bee Gees music and some platform shoes, and try to convince the buyers they are back in the 70' or 80's. The car would look right at home. Oh wait, it would only be worth $9k then.

[flatsicks]

I'd make a list of what overrestored has suggested. All these changes take a few days, maybe.

As to not wanting to take off the tires and mounting them on the original rims or installing the correct carbs and air filters?

How much effort is an additional $50k in your selling price worth to you? If I had to put a value on 'current' and 'corrected' that would be about it.

And the engine that is currently installed is a C, not a S90, so the tach would have a redline from 5k-5500. The tach in the car is a S90, most likely from a Bt5 as A cars did not come with S90 engines.

Being a C engine, it would have had Zenith carbs, not Solexes, with mesh filters, not the 58-on cans (good luck sourcing those).

Was the original color also red or was it painted a different color way back when, as that would also have a negative effect on value. Resale Red was popular back in the 80s, not so much now. Ditto for a change of interior color (I bet $50 it used to have a black interior).

Currently the exterior colors nobody wanted in the 80s are top dollar (meissen blue, speedster blue, aquamarine, jade green, even togo brown is now somewhat sought after), same on early 911s. Lido gold was oh-so wrong 10-15 years ago, now everyone is drooling over it.

Nevertheless it is a very rare car - the long rear overrider bar was only offered for about 6 months, then they went to split bars. Great to see it is still there!!

[xbrumossalesman]

Remember, this is not my car, and this is a favor, not a paid commission.

What have you lead the owner believe the car will sell for ?

The prices being thrown around here -up to $385K- are top end for museum quality .

You know from your Corvette dealings that the cars that bring all the money are numbers matching -judged & documented- as nice as this car is and with the great story that comes with it this car no longer has that pedigree.

Looks like you are going to have a lot of work for no $$$$ reward.