Value check needed: 1975 911S not running

[MTR]

A family member of mine is the original owner of a 1975 911S coupe. It's white with tan interior and 100% stock, matching 2.7L & transmission, 85k odometer, and comes with a stack of records. Car is in good shape, original paint, no accidents or rust, etc.

The car has sat in his garage for the last 7 years and currently does not run. He recently decided to sell the car and I'm interested in purchasing it. We are trying to get to a reasonable value of it. Since he is a family member, I don't want him to feel like I'm ripping him off, but I also don't want to overpay for a can of worms that could cost a bunch to get running again. I tried to look up some asking prices of other 74-77 911S that have been up for sale recently and the pricing is all over the place, but this one is not running which is a big difference.

I'm thinking at a minimum it will need:
Battery: $100
New Fluids: $200
Tires: $1000
Plugs/Wires/Distributor: $300
Drain fuel: $?
(Am I forgetting anything that needs to be done at a bare minimum?)

Obviously this list could become significantly longer and more expensive if the motor requires work. I would like to get some opinions on what you guys think this car is worth as it sits. Really appreciate the feedback.

Thanks,
Mike

[patina]

10k

[ricks234]

This car doesn't happen to be in SAn Diego does it?

[77Targa0912]

Color combo? Has it had any engine work? $15,000 if the cosmetics are as good as you say they are.

[pors1968]

7 years you can add brake job fuel line CIS works engine seal and you have to know why they park the car engine trans cluth .10 -12k

[COLB]

pors1968 raises an important point: why did he park it in the first place?

Is there an engine rebuild in the records? If not, you can expect a 75 with thermal reactors is going to have issues. You can remove the lower valve covers to see if the headstuds are broken or pulling out.

Then be positive there is no rust -- in the floors, rockers, door bottoms, front pans, rear seats, and along the edges of the window trim.

Rust repair and engine issues will be your two big variables. If he has an engine rebuild in the records, and there is NO rust, you are probably looking at a $15-20k car.

A well-sorted, one owner 75 with low miles (85k) records, and original paint is easily a $30k car.

Figure $3-4k in costs to get it running again (tires, belts, gaskets, hoses, fuel lines, filters, fluids, cap/rotor, plugs & wires, clutch; plus ungumming the CIS and fuel system). That is if you DIY. I can't speak to the CIS, which may require specialty knowledge, but the rest of it is easy stuff an amateur can do with Bentley/Dempsey manuals, basic tools, a floor jack & stands, and 50 hours of labour over a couple of months or so.

Factor in the risk the engine may need a rebuild, and I would be comfortable getting into that car at $15k. I am certain your family member could get that (and probably more ) if he put it up on this website.

[MTR]

Originally Posted by COLB

pors1968 raises an important point: why did he park it in the first place?

The reason the car was parked started because of some electrical issue he said where the car would start-up fine and run then cut out. He mentioned something about it needing some electrical part which he couldn't remember the name (he likes Porsches but I wouldn't call him a car guy) - of course I'm trying to give him ideas: alternator, distributor, battery, fuse box to which he continually replied "no that's not it." Anyway he said this mysterious part costs $800. But it sounds like the motor overall is stout.

The engine has not been rebuilt, so that potential cost needs to be included which will reduce the value in my opinion. What typically needs to be addressed on the 2.7Ls? I've read that they are magnesium cases and have issues with the valve guides and head studs. Any ideas what the cost is to have those two items addressed. Am I forgetting anything critical?

Originally Posted by ricks234

This car doesn't happen to be in SAn Diego does it?

No, it's an east coast car.

Originally Posted by 77Targa0912

Color combo? Has it had any engine work? $15,000 if the cosmetics are as good as you say they are.

It's white with tan interior. Car is in great shape. Owner was very diligent in keeping it in good condition throughout its life.

Thanks for the help and opinions, sounds like most people are around the $10k-$15k mark (but again, the engine has not been rebuilt), so I'm leaning a toward the lower end of that range to give myself some more margin if the motor requires any expensive fixes. Does that sound right? Maybe $12k?

Mike

[COLB]

Could be a CDI unit -- getting a rebuilt one is only $200. Regardless, fuel injection troubleshooting is in your future, but that is cheaper than an engine rebuild. Does it look pretty dry underneath? If it is caked with thick oil sludge, that might be an indicator the headstuds have broken or pulled from the case.

Thanks for the help and opinions, sounds like most people are around the $10k-$15k mark (but again, the engine has not been rebuilt), so I'm leaning a toward the lower end of that range to give myself some more margin if the motor requires any expensive fixes. Does that sound right? Maybe $12k?

On your offer, without pictures, it is really hard to assess a car. But based on how you have described the condition, it is worth more than that.

That was a good offer for a non-running middie in 2013. But frankly, $12k is basically "parts car" money in 2015.

It is a family deal, so that might be an OK deal for all involved. But maybe not. That depends on your relationship with the family member.

If he wants to keep it in the family, and is willing to knowingly let it go a little under market to help you out -- it is potentially a great deal.

If he has been out of the market and doesn't really know how much these have appreciated the past few year, it may well cause heartburn down the road when he finds out he left ~$3-5k on the table, and thinks you took advantage of your relationship.

Most especially if you buy it, fix it up, and then sell it for 2-3 times what you paid for it a year later. Your sweat equity should count, but will he see it that way?

However you sort it out, full disclosure is always best -- especially with friends and family. A car deal isn't worth damaging relationships. A grand or two is a small price to pay.

Taking your description at face value, even if the engine needs a full rebuild -- unless you are going to use your checkbook to get it up and running -- you are in sound financial shape in that car at $15k.

[MTR]

Originally Posted by COLB

Could be a CDI unit -- getting a rebuilt one is only $200. Regardless, fuel injection troubleshooting is in your future, but that is cheaper than an engine rebuild. Does it look pretty dry underneath? If it is caked with thick oil sludge, that might be an indicator the headstuds have broken or pulled from the case.



On your offer, without pictures, it is really hard to assess a car. But based on how you have described the condition, it is worth more than that.

That was a good offer for a non-running middie in 2013. But frankly, $12k is basically "parts car" money in 2015.

It is a family deal, so that might be an OK deal for all involved. But maybe not. That depends on your relationship with the family member.

If he wants to keep it in the family, and is willing to knowingly let it go a little under market to help you out -- it is potentially a great deal.

If he has been out of the market and doesn't really know how much these have appreciated the past few year, it may well cause heartburn down the road when he finds out he left ~$3-5k on the table, and thinks you took advantage of your relationship.

Most especially if you buy it, fix it up, and then sell it for 2-3 times what you paid for it a year later. Your sweat equity should count, but will he see it that way?

However you sort it out, full disclosure is always best -- especially with friends and family. A car deal isn't worth damaging relationships. A grand or two is a small price to pay.

Taking your description at face value, even if the engine needs a full rebuild -- unless you are going to use your checkbook to get it up and running -- you are in sound financial shape in that car at $15k.

Thanks a lot COLB. You really hit it on the head - there are a lot of family dynamics involved and for a couple thousand difference I would rather err on the side of no one having hurt feelings in the future versus me getting a steal of a deal.

I plan in doing most of the work to get things sorted so obviously there will be significant sweat equity that I put into the car and don't have any plans to flip it. He did ask for first right of refusal should I ever plan to sell it, which is reasonable. I'm going to try and ask him for some pictures today if he has the time. I'll post them up if I am successful.

Mike

[HugoBear]

I think COLB is dead on. I have seen crappy rollers being listed close to 10-12k, doesn't mean they are getting it-hope they are not.
It would be good to get it checked out if possible because value can vary so much. Wouldn't want either of you to be disappointed and without a somewhat expert opinion, the potential for that is pretty high.

[MTR]

Originally Posted by HugoBear

I think COLB is dead on. I have seen crappy rollers being listed close to 10-12k, doesn't mean they are getting it-hope they are not.
It would be good to get it checked out if possible because value can vary so much. Wouldn't want either of you to be disappointed and without a somewhat expert opinion, the potential for that is pretty high.

That's another thing that is an issue. I was trying to research some 911S ads to share that could point us towards a value of a well running example. The problem is air cooled ASKING prices are all over the map and just because someone is asking $30k for their beat up 200k mile 911S, doesn't mean it will actually sell for anywhere near it.

Mike

[HugoBear]

I think one thing you may want to consider is this.
Is this the car you want to put 12-15-20k into even though you have a family situation like this?
There are a lot of cars out there that seem to be ok deals that I personally would have no interest in.
I would make sure you want this car not just because of the situation. If you do, that is fantastic and I know you will get it done that will be beneficial for both parties.

[MTR]

Originally Posted by HugoBear

I think one thing you may want to consider is this.
Is this the car you want to put 12-15-20k into even though you have a family situation like this?
There are a lot of cars out there that seem to be ok deals that I personally would have no interest in.
I would make sure you want this car not just because of the situation. If you do, that is fantastic and I know you will get it done that will be beneficial for both parties.

Yea, it's a tough call. I have a 997.1 Turbo now and have been looking to add a nice aircooled 911 to the garage. Best case scenario would be a 964 C2, but a nice SC or G50 would be next best. A 2.7L is pretty much at the bottom of my list, I just don't want to look back and regret passing on a great car even though it's not exactly what I'm looking for due to the reliability issues with the 2.7L. Seems like passing on a nice condition aircooled 911 for what could be potentially under $20k is kinda crazy.

[HugoBear]

Completely understand and sounds like you have thought it through. Makes sense, especially since you seem mechanically inclined, could be fun. Good luck with whatever you do.

[MTR]

Originally Posted by HugoBear

Completely understand and sounds like you have thought it through. Makes sense, especially since you seem mechanically inclined, could be fun. Good luck with whatever you do.

Thanks, I'll keep you guys up to date with whatever ends up happening. It's either going to be a picture of it in my garage or a for sale ad.

[COLB]

The beauty of it being an "inside" family deal is that you have some time to do "due diligence".

You can get it to a shop for a thorough PPI and find out exactly what it needs, and get a sense of the state of the engine after a look under the valve covers, and compression & leakdown tests.

That can influence the discussion you have about what value is fair to you both. Most outside deals today are decreasingly supportive of PPIs -- especially if you are buying a car at less than full retail.

If some random guy were selling this car here or on craigslist, a dealer (or flipper) would probably snap it up immediately, and any cautious buyer looking to do a PPI will get left behind.

The market stigma with the 2.7 cars is pretty much gone, and they seem to trade at comparable prices to SCs. A lot of folks (like me) like the slimmer lines that are more reflective of the early longhood cars. The engine issues have generally been sorted over time -- the pros will tell most burned up with 40k miles (in the first 3-5 years of service life).

Many got re-engined with 3.0s from wrecked SCs, so an original motor is a plus. Given the mileage, there is a pretty good chance it was rebuilt & repaired already with different studs and case savers.

If you are not in a state where 75s are still smogged, and it has thermal reactors, you can pull those off and install a 74 exhaust system. Folks tend to recommend adding an additional oil cooler inside the passenger fender.

If I had room, and were in your position, I would jump on it if agreeable terms could be reached.

[CountD]

I have a '75 as most of you know, that was parked for more than 20 years.

Getting it up and running SAFELY is a tremendous amount of work.

1) New Tank
2) New Fuel Lines
3) New Fuel Injectors
4) Rebuilt and/or new Fuel Dizzy
5) Rebuilt WUR
6) New Alternator (sat too long)
7) New rubber brake lines
8) New metal lines
9) Rebuild calipers
10) New Master Cylinder
11) Cluster Rebuild (from leaking master for 20+ years)
12) Misc hoses, seals, gaskets, Carrera tensioners, etc
13) Flushed Oil Cooler
14) Dizzy Rebuild
15) Cap, Rotor, wires


All this work done myself, but well over $5000+ in parts in basically a clean car, rust-free, sitting in Southern California. Labor would probably run close to $7K to do all this.

These cars are NOT CHEAP to get going after they sit. They are a money pit, even if they are garaged, in climate control, and sit in nice weather. A LOT needs to be replaced for safety reasons alone. This is a 40-year-old car.

Money adds up tremendously fast. I didn't even start the suspension OR cosmetics.

[Matt Monson]

'75 does not gave thermal reactors. That's no a concern on this particular 2.7. Nice 2.7 is a solid engine.

[COLB]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

'75 does not gave thermal reactors. That's no a concern on this particular 2.7. Nice 2.7 is a solid engine.

Doesn't it depends if it was a California car or 49-state? Sources I have seen state that California cars got thermal reactors.

Don't know where the OP and the car reside, which why I said "if".

[77Targa0912]

I have a well sorted 2.7 that runs fantastic.