Value of my 1967 911S project

[LS1951]

I've bought and sold plenty of Porsche's in the past but I'm having difficulty setting a price on this one. Of course the easy thing to do is post it on eBay and see what it goes for. But I figured I would start a thread here to see what the general consensus is and possibly generate some interest as well. I haven't 100% decided to sell it yet but it's looking like it may go that way so here goes.

I bought this car about a year and a half ago. It was a victim of the 80's widebody treatment that was so popular back in the day. It still had the numbers matching trans-axle but the engine was long gone as well as most of the interior. What attracted me was the fact that it was a 67S in a desirable color (Tangerine) and was ordered with factory sport seats (also long gone).

The plan was to build a period correct hot rod with a 2.5 short stroke twin plug engine. I immediately stripped the tub down to nothing and towed it to John Esposito who in my opinion is one of THE best Porsche body guys around. I also bought a SWB roller as a donor vehicle. He has had the car for over a year and it is finally nearing completion. The car was fairly rust free but it did need a new front pan and rockers and of course the correct sheet metal to take it back to a SWB. The floor pans, seat pans and rear parcel shelf were in surprisingly good condition. I also had John remove all of the various holes that were drilled in the body for power windows, speakers, A/C, CD player etc. This was a huge project to say the least. The tub is now in as-new condition and a fresh coat of Tangerine was laid down this past Saturday.

In the next week or two the car will be rolled across the parking lot to TLG Auto, they will restore the suspension and brakes(original 67S) and at that point I will decide if it makes sense to sell the car or continue with the restoration.

I've been spending the last year or so collecting original 67S parts as well as period sports purpose/hot rod parts.

Parts that would be included:

Exterior
-Original glass, minus windshield
-Original window frames & trim (needs chrome)
-Original door handles (needs chrome)
-Restored SWB headlights
-NOS front turn signals & rear tail lights
-Good used deck lid grill
-Good used 911S and Porsche script
-Good used original hood badge
-New horn grills and seals from AFS
-New bumper deco
-New SWB S bumper trim from AFS
-All new seals installed by John Esposito
-Re-plated latches and strikers installed by Esposito

Interior
-Good used sunvisors and clips
-Good used 67S rear view mirror
-Complete 67S interior panels, including a restored dash, good original rear seats (mix of good original & perfect restored pieces). NOS 67S arm rests. All 67S only trim included. No door panels, front seats, carpet or headliner
-Restored gauges by North Hollywood

Engine compartment
-New reproduction engine decals
-Restored OEM oil tank

Misc
-Numbers matching trans-axle
-Steel roller wheels and tires

I'm thinking around $130k. What say you?

[COLB]

A car like this is currently going to top out where when finished? $250-275k as a #2 restoration with a correct, but non-original engine? A lot less if you are looking to finish it as a hot rod, rather than a #2 stock restoration.

If I read your post correctly, what you are offering is a fully finished chassis as a roller after they install the suspension?

With a partial supply of interior and exterior parts in bins, and an unsorted wiring harness, and if I read it right, no engine or fuel system, etc.

I would expect someone who really knows these cars (not me) is going to need an estimate of how much is missing to finish the car -- especially any really hard parts to source:

- like a correct steering wheel that is probably a $2000 part.

- What are correct seats going for? $15k+?

- 20k+ for a correct engine + another $10k+ for carbs, etc -- then add rebuild costs.


It strikes me that you are selling a tweener:

- you don't have nearly enough parts to sell this as an incomplete restoration of a correct 67S, but are asking that level of money for it.

- you have the makings of a great SWB hot-rod, but have already sunk concours money on the body restoration, and having gone this far, think it deserves finishing at that level.

Interested to hear a more informed opinion than my SWAGs.

Its a very cool project, but daunting for anyone but a professional with a lot of resources. And they tend to want to start with complete, numbers matching cars if they are going to sink that much into a restoration, and not deal with the years of hunting down everything needed to get it right.

[Sarc]

I have nothing to add other than she's looking well on her way into becoming a stunner.
Hopefully you decide to finish her.
Best of luck to you.

[Unobtanium-inc]

$130k in project form demands matching numbers and completeness. Without its original engine, I don't see it selling for that price. Considering you don't have an engine at all, and are missing gobs of parts for the car, I'd say you are more than a little optimistic with that price. Even when finished to a very high standard, it will always be a sub-par example, the top of the heap being cars that retained their original panels, engine, wheels, etc. That's not to say it won't be gorgeous, but we're talking values here. - Matt

[LS1951]

Thanks for the input so far. I'm starting to realize that it may not make sense to sell the car. I'm actually not very excited about the idea of selling it but a very special car has presented itself and the only way for me to afford it would be to cut the 67 loose.

So purists, look the other way. This car will never be original again and in my opinion it's the perfect candidate for a sports purpose build. I've collected some very cool parts to hang on this thing, most of which are even harder to find than the original parts. I might just have to see it through and let the other car go. Decisions decisions...

[Matt Monson]

The car Dick Barbour bought at auction and has been trying to sell comes to mind. His ask on a complete car, not numbers matching but thoroughly suped up is similar to the proposed price on this S chassis. Dick's car isn't nearly as nice a chassis, nor an S. But it really is only an S if it has an S heart and lungs. I think $120k is $30-40k past what you can sell it for. You might have 120 in it, but if it diesnt come out the other side as a finished car the only way to pray to realize that is to sit on it for another year or 2 while values still climb and then sell it as it sits for close to the current proposed price.

[LS1951]

E

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

But it really is only an S if it has an S heart and lungs

Not sure I follow your logic here. If someone were to drop an S "heart and lungs" in a 912 would that make it more of an S than an S chassis with a non original engine?

As an unfinished project, I agree that the value is probably less than I originally figured. But comparing the car to anything other than another 67S with a non matching engine doesn't really make sense to me. All hot rods cannot simply be lumped together into the same category. There is only one car that I can think of that's comparable. A white 67S hot rod sold by Canepa in 2013. Now I'm in no way saying my car will be as nice or well built but I'm hoping it will be close. This car did not have correct seats, deco, wheels or an S engine. But what it did have was a very nice short stroke twin plug engine, period correct Recaro buckets, minilite wheels and attitude. The car sold for $300k two years ago.

Don't get me wrong. I may sound defensive here. I'm not defending my car really. I'm defending well built hot rods. I think there's a misconception that a non stock car is less valuable or less expensive to build. In most cases they are but not always. The car that I mentioned probably cost more to build than if he went stock and it sold for S money with a non S heart and lungs.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by LS1951

Not sure I follow your logic here. If someone were to drop an S "heart and lungs" in a 912 would that make it more of an S than an S chassis with a non original engine?

Nope. It would just make it a 912 with a $40-50k heart.

Originally Posted by LS1951

As an unfinished project, I agree that the value is probably less than I originally figured. But comparing the car to anything other than another 67S with a non matching engine doesn't really make sense to me. All hot rods cannot simply be lumped together into the same category. There is only one car that I can think of that's comparable. A white 67S hot rod sold by Canepa in 2013. Now I'm in no way saying my car will be as nice or well built but I'm hoping it will be close. This car did not have correct seats, deco, wheels or an S engine. But what it did have was a very nice short stroke twin plug engine, period correct Recaro buckets, minilite wheels and attitude. The car sold for $300k two years ago.

Don't get me wrong. I may sound defensive here. I'm not defending my car really. I'm defending well built hot rods. I think there's a misconception that a non stock car is less valuable or less expensive to build. In most cases they are but not always. The car that I mentioned probably cost more to build than if he went stock and it sold for S money with a non S heart and lungs.

See the bold. That's where I'm going to disagree with you. I think a car like the Canepa example could potentially command 6 figures more than it sold for with the correct engine either on a pallet as a spare or installed. We've seen some pretty high prices paid recently for really nice hot rods. Magnus is one of the more public examples.

Whether you could get $300k for your car finished is only something that can be determined one way...

[COLB]

Originally Posted by LS1951

E

Not sure I follow your logic here. If someone were to drop an S "heart and lungs" in a 912 would that make it more of an S than an S chassis with a non original engine?

As an unfinished project, I agree that the value is probably less than I originally figured. But comparing the car to anything other than another 67S with a non matching engine doesn't really make sense to me. All hot rods cannot simply be lumped together into the same category. There is only one car that I can think of that's comparable. A white 67S hot rod sold by Canepa in 2013. Now I'm in no way saying my car will be as nice or well built but I'm hoping it will be close. This car did not have correct seats, deco, wheels or an S engine. But what it did have was a very nice short stroke twin plug engine, period correct Recaro buckets, minilite wheels and attitude. The car sold for $300k two years ago.

Don't get me wrong. I may sound defensive here. I'm not defending my car really. I'm defending well built hot rods. I think there's a misconception that a non stock car is less valuable or less expensive to build. In most cases they are but not always. The car that I mentioned probably cost more to build than if he went stock and it sold for S money with a non S heart and lungs.

Most hot rods are built from Ts -- they are cheaper to acquire to start, and you aren't burning any value when you gut it and build it into something else.

If you build a Bullitt clone Mustang out of a derelict Shelby chassis, is it worth more than a regular fastback Bullitt clone? Maybe, but not by a whole lot. Any value a S VIN brings to the table is the potential for someone interested in returning it to a stock car.

Unless you have the resources and brand value of Canepa, or another company with an established market reputation, no hotrod you build is going to bring the money one of theirs will.

What you need to consider is that if you decide to sell it, you are selling the car you have now, not the vision for what it might be. Particularly since most of the critical (and expensive) parts to actualize that vision are not included.

Given that, who is your potential buyer?

Frankly, the guy probably most interested in your car is someone who already has a complete, but rust bucket non-matching 67S that they can swing most of the parts from. Thats probably a small set.

Another guy looking to build a hot rod would probably be interested, but not at the retail+ price you are asking.

Don't get me wrong -- it is a sweet car. And would be cool no matter which direction you go. You just need to make a decision on what it will be, and either build it or cut your losses as it sits.

[Soterik]

Your thought on $120K may be a bit optimistic but remember there are only a few tangerine 67S's left out there. You're currently in one of the best shops for body/paint, and TLG is great at what they do as well.

You can always test the waters once the car get's on it's feet after TLG. Certainly Esposito and TLG know of buyers, and you can put the car on the Early S to see what happens. Note that though a lot of work remains, a lot of the heavy lifting on the body/paint has also been done.

I think the most would be realized on this project if you finish it up aka the Canepa car. My suggestion would be to source a correct 67S block and then build it up to a single plug or twin plug 2.5 short stroke and I would do it with a very notable engine builder and I would suggest Jeff Gamroth. I think you'll end up with a car you won't want to sell. I've been there and done that and I wish I had that car back....

Contact me directly and I'll give you my thoughts... and I can also give you my build sheet for the motor from Gamroth. I know of another car that was built in a similar fashion and sold for "all the money".

Eric

[LS1951]

Thanks for the response Eric. I value your input and your contributions to the early 911 world! If I continue with the project (leaning that way) I will definitely contact you, thanks for the offer.

This thread has taken a turn from project roller value to hot rod value. I think we can put the roller value question to bed, it's not worth what I would want to sell it for. Ok, fair enough.

I do think the hot rod subject is very interesting. Maybe hot rod is too general of a term. It seems that when most Porsche guys hear that term they either think about Magnus's builds or R/RS/RSR etc. clones. Those types of builds are very cool and they both have their place in our hobby. But what I'm planning on building is nothing like a personalized hot rod or a clone of any kind. If I wanted to build a highly personalized hot rod or a 911R clone, it would make no sense to start with an S.

My goal with this car from day one was to build a very specific type of hot rod. A "purist" hot rod, is that a thing? Usually there are no rules when building a hot rod, and that's a good thing. But with this car I set a few basic rules for myself. I call it my 1967 Hot Rod Bible

- If you can see it, it must be period correct (SWB)
- No added parts, substitute or delete only
- All sports purpose parts must serve a purpose and not just look cool
- All hot rod parts will be original vintage parts or very high quality/exact reproductions

So why start with an S? Simple, it was the best 911 you could get from the factory in 1967 (unless you could swing a 911R). If someone wanted to go racing or build a really fast street car back in the day they would have most likely started with an S since it had all of the suspension, brake and engine upgrades. You could then check the boxes for a Rally Kit, 100L tank, Sport Kit etc. Or simply walk into the dealer and order everything from the parts counter. That is the type of hot rod I'm building. If built correctly and with the right people involved, it should be worth all the money. Of course it won't matter then because it won't be for sale ;-)

[Matt Monson]

I think your logic is sound. For a SWB sport purposes is absolutely the "right" way to go. In a much less developed way it is what I am slowly doing on my 912.

[Jabberwocky]

I like your thinking. The SWB cars had a rich history in Trans Am, SCCA and rallies around the world. It was a very special time in the history of the 911.

John Audette did a similar build some years back. The specs can be found here on his site. Stubby | Audette Collection: The SWB 911 Light Resource


He basically followed "the bible" of that time....the "Information Regarding Porsche Vehicles used for Sports Purposes".

One of my favorites from that era, except for the flares, was the Hart Ski T/R:

1968 Porsche 911 T/R

Good luck with your project. Glad you're keeping it. Remember, only 3100 SWB "S" coupes were built. Not that many of them left 😀

[LS1951]

Yes, John Audette's car as well as the Hart Ski car are two of my favorites as well. Also just about anything built by Don Ahern from Porsport.

The "Information Regarding Porsche Vehicles used for Sports Purposes" manual is of course the go-to for SWB junkies. Another very cool manual put out by Porsche is the rare " PORSCHE for the Competition Driver" folder. It was printed in 1967 and as far as I know is the earliest publication of its kind.

[13blackknight]

Pm'd .