Price effect -- AC delete and rolled fenders
 

Hey guys

I'd love your opinion on the effect pulling the AC and rolling the fenders may have on the value of my 57,000 mile VG condition 1985 targa

It's a fabulous car with a bit of wear - not a show car - but not much. A top quality driver.

I will be tracking this car 4-5 weekends a year and was initally planning to get a rat rod for X amount of dollars when I lucked into this for the same money. I love targas so this isn't just a placeholder til I find a coupe although i do for see other Porsche's down the road .

If it were the rat rod I was planning on buying I'd have pulled the AC a year ago and rolled the fenders but finding a nicer car has made me a little hesitant

I didn't buy this as an investment but as a hobby and a joy and a passion

Thoughts?

Rolled fenders are a plus for nearly everyone if done correctly no lost value.

Ac is a deal breaker for some. This may limit you to a smaller group of buyers, but value would be around the same. The ac is a joke anyway. It just doesn't work well

Thanks Saxen
That makes sense -- no value change just less people who will buy without AC intact.

You could take out the AC but keep it to make it available to the next buyer. As a buyer I wouldn't mind that one bit. However I don't like rolled fenders, personally.

A/C is a joke in these cars on the best day, and rolled fenders are a must unless you think stock U.S. height looks good. Neither should effect the price one bit. If a guy used either to try to knock down your price, he really doesn't want your car.

So would you pass on the car all other things good or buy it but use fenders to bargain?

I wouldn't pass on an otherwise very good car if I liked everything else about it, but I'd like it better if they weren't rolled. But that's just me...

Please.

I wanted a car with intact AC because even though the stock AC works poorly, it can provide a basis for excellent AC, if massaged properly. But you want every fitting and every fastener in place. And if the AC is at least functional, you might actually be able to use some of the parts.

Functional AC is a bonus, and will make for a larger audience, and therefore a higher price. While YOU might not care, plenty of folks do. And buyer's guide suggest that if someone wants AC, that they buy a car with intact, installed and functional AC. Absolutely it's a negotiation point. Rolled fenders, if done right, aren't noticeable.

What does "please" mean?

If you walked away from a 911 because of the A/C, you didn't want it very badly. If a guy brought it up to haggle the price I would pat him on the back and tell him to leave.

Head bolts, bottom end, clutch or tranny..... sure, but the A/C? No.

I agree with Eric about the a/c; if I'm looking to spend big bucks on a street 911 (not a race/track car), I would only purchase one with the a/c components in place. The a/c would not necessarily need to be functioning (would be a bonus if it was, however), as I would modify it right after purchase, but if I read an add for one that said "a/c delete", I would be done reading at that point, or at the very least, would only consider purchasing the car if the seller was offering a significant, a/c delete price reduction (talking several thousand dollars), and the smuggler's box had not been butchered at the time of "a/c deleting", since I would then need to undertake a lot of expense and work to re-fit the components.

Also to echo what Eric mentioned, it would be a significant positive if the a/c was functioning, as that enables someone like him or me (someone who knows how to make 911 air conditioning work at a very high level) to more easily judge what current parts on the car are usable, and that could equal quite a bit of extra expense or savings after purchase.

Thanks Eric and Ronnie's
Good to hear the other perspective

My perspective.

I don't think rolled fenders or properly removed A/C would help or hinder a nice car, especially if all a/c components were provided intact and presentable. If someone wants a car with great A/C, they should buy a late model Toyota, not an aircooled 911. This was the first line of price beating everyone trying to buy my friend's very nice '83 SC had, "How cold is the air?" It's not cold, never was, now go annoy someone else.....

My car has rolled fenders and the A/C removed :)

I don't think either affects value; I think the lack of A/C affects the market size, however, if you do a complete A/C ripout.
Leaving all the A/C bits in place, and just removing the compressor(and including it in the sale) etc will do nothing to affect value.

It takes a enthusiast like a Pelicanite to notice the fenders, and that's a small and very critical part of the market size.

Nonsense - it takes a couple of thousand dollars (more if you pay others to do the work) and some work and then you have an air cooled 911/930 with great a/c.

I totally get that, a couple grand as a required investment, not something that's already in place as I stated. In my experience of people calling on a 32year old car asking how cold the air blows, knowing damn well it sucked from the factory, trying to beat down a price...it's laughable.

My unfiltered thoughts on AC in a sports car in general:

You're hot? Roll your window down and I'll drive faster. Don't like it? GTFO, it's my car SmileWavy

Spoken like a man that lives in Connecticut. :rolleyes:


No A/C is a serious issue in a lot of places where the average summer temperature is 95 rather than 82.

So the advice is regional. If the car is a beater, it doesn't matter much. The higher you go in the market, the more it matters.

You can pull the compressor and the rear condenser in 15 minutes, and cuts some weight that is easily reversible. Pull all the hoses, and it is a whole other level of difficulty reinstalling -- mainly because you can't figure out where the hoses route, and the brackets screw in -- and you are opening a bunch of screw holes into the sheet metal to increase the likelihood of corrosion.

If it is a full on track car, no issue. If it is a street car at all, or you think to return it to that state at some point, an a/c delete is a hit on value.

Rock on SauCy,

Air cooled 911's are serious cars for serious owners.

AMEN BROTHER!!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...leys/2ar15.gif

It's like the people who have convertibles and the top up with air on during the summer...go buy a PRIUS

COLB: FWIW, summers suck up here in CT, only place I've been where its worse is the deep south, out west is hot but hot, not Rain Forest like it was here this am.

I have an aircooled 911 Turbo that I've spent about 8 years modifying extensively (now north or 350hp) without a care in the world for the car's "market value", piling the mileage on, and building an a/c system for it that will hang icicles on your parts even in the burnass climate that I live in; is that "serious" enough for you?

Do you think that your a/c delete 911 is more hardcore than my modified 911 Turbo with super-cold a/c? Which of the two do you think would be an easier challenge for a PRIUS?! :)

Respect his internet badassery.

:D

http://i.imgur.com/6rJeMgj.gif

It does affect value. It's not opinion, its economics. When your audience is large, your price will not suffer as much of a discount as when your market is small. Baseline on these cars is stock form. Some mods add to the price, most detract, but stock is baseline. Removal of stock equipment affects the baseline lower. Addition of very desirable OEM equipment might make for increased value - Fuchs wheels of a larger size, for instance, or sport seats, or a 930 steering wheel, etc. But removal of stock parts, even if they are supplied with the vehicle, might make for a lower value. Let's say, if you put on SSIs, and wanted to sell in a place with strict air pollution regs. Sure, SSIs are great, but a potential buyer, even if you include the stock exhaust with the car, might think twice about buying. This reduces your audience, and thus your potential buyers. A smaller market means you are less likely to get top-of-the-market pricing, all other things being equal. The same goes for any stock parts. Yes, there are folks who don't care, or desire a non-AC car. But those folks are fewer than the folks who want the car stock or with AC. Thus, the economics dictate that you are more likely to get good pricing if you leave the stuff on. Better if it works. Even better if it works well, and the mods can't be seen. All other things being equal, a functional AC has a larger market than any other kind of AC configuration, and thus will command the largest price. For those folks who do not care, AC is not a value issue. For those folks that care about have a stock car or functional AC, then it's part of the value discussion.

It means, " Oh, please. :rolleyes: "

I limited my search parameters to cars with AC. If it didn't have AC, I just passed the ad right by. Just like if the car was water-cooled. Or had no motor. Or was a Targa. Or a cabriolet. I had a specific set of needs, wants and nice-to-haves. Since I wanted to have the largest resale audience possible, in the event I ever wanted to sell the car, I had AC as a "need". While you might not be picky about what car you buy, I am. And what's more, I'm not nearly the only one. If some super-incredible deal would have come along while I was shopping, like a super-low-mile 930 in 2+ condition for $10k, but no AC? I would have bought that car without any question. But no deals like that showed up.

Your logic and economic theory makes perfect sense, but leaves out emotion. Many times that overrides what some might consider a minor (and correctable) deficiency in a car.
All things being equal, you're right. But not all buyers, or cars, are equal.SmileWavy

I think what I'm gonna do is put my belt back on and see how well it works on a hot muggy Toronto day. If well enough I leave. If not - gone, hoses and all.

Thanks everyone -- seriously helpful

Increases value. Saves me the trouble of doing it myself.

Exactly right. Which is why my first piece of advice for a new buyer is this:

Don't fall in love with the car.

;)

So now that the OP has his answer...

My car has a new aftermarket retroair AC system. My next Porsche (an SC or Carrera) will probably get all the retroair upgrades but on a factory layout. I could save about $1500-2000 by pulling my AC parts from my current Porsche and using them again on the next one. There aren't many 912Es with good AC so I guess this could fill a little niche. Should I sell it complete with AC, give the option to the buyer for an additional $1xxx or just pull the AC parts before selling?

^^^

If it were me, I would list the car with the Retroair gear intact, really tout the sweetness of the a/c (complete with performance data) and price the car with the a/c in mind. No doubt you would find a buyer that would be thrilled to own a 912 with cold a/c and be happy to pay extra for it. If I were looking to buy a 912, seeing one listed with a Retroair system would be wood-inducing and I would pay more without hesitation.

It means biatch please!
Ive been skipping this thread until now. I saw enough posts from Ronniethat I thought I might be missing out on some good asshattery. So I opened her up. Jesus h Christ. What is this knitting circle of old bitties going on about their ac??? I get that people live hot places and need their ac, but to dismiss a car over ac? Wow. I must live in the dark. 911 ac is so poor I don't even consider it when shopping. I always dismiss the ac threads in the tech forum as the realm of fanatics tilting at windmills. Sounds like I need to get educated because it sounds like there is now an ac solution. My new 74 no sunroof coupe has ac. I think I need to find out what to buy to make it work. But I will never buy or dismiss a Porsche based on the ac.

So Matt, did the asshattery live up (down?) to your expectations?!?!?!

If you're ever interested in picking my feeble brain about Porsche a/c upgrades, I'll be glad to speak to you. I am currently running high 20s vent temperatures in mid 90s ambient, even at idle (I **** you not) - no magic involved, either. :)

Yup, just like the other guy. If I were buying right now, I don't know if I would assign it as much importance. And the major rason for that is that when I bought my car, refurbishing the AC was a significant fraction of the purchase price. Nowadays, slapping in a whole system into a car that never had it would be much less of a fraction of the the purchase price. While I like AC when its hot, its not as important as when I bought the car.

Compared to the tech forum AC thread asshattery, this thread was like a New England country club discussion over martinis.

Well, not Bushwood, but other country clubs.

With a name like that, it MUST be a goodun (retro good, buttofcourse)!!!

Ronnie, thanks for the input. I think you're right.

Matt, I don't plan on ever owning another Porsche without AC. Not in AZ, not in CO, not anywhere in the United States. IMO driving around in a car with an interior temp of 140F takes away from the fun a lot more than 60 extra lbs.

Wait, what did I miss? I thought, Matt, you were dead set on a targa.... Is it white? Maybe you have my first 74 911.

I did road trip to Texas in 90 degree heat w/o AC but used a spray bottle filled with water. Tolerable, barely.

And there will be no gambling at Bushwood!

And I never slice

Not the dark -- Denver.

Denver -- of the 25% humidity and 80 degree summer days.

Do you discount heat the same way?

I don't think anyone is saying they would dismiss a car over the A/C -- the original question is whether it would affect its value.

Well, when I was shopping, it was part of the filter. So, I suppose I did dismiss cars without AC. If I were going to do it again, I wouldn't, but I'd modify my internal price to reflect the reality of the value functional AC adds to the car.