1989 964 C4 I'm looking at

[SpenceRx]

Hi All,

I would appreciate your thoughts on value for the following car I"m considering:

Guards Red over black leather 1989 C4. Two owner car. ~90,000 Km's (55,000 miles). Manual.

The good:

Canadian delivered car spent first 4 years in Quebec since then in temperate Vancouver.
9/10 interior Untouched interior all stock.
8/10 Paint. No rust apart from one spot below the rear glass (drivers side) that looked like it might be starting under the paint. Maybe the size of a pencil eraser.
Original blaupunkt tape player.
All power groups work
No accident history
Comes with stock D90 wheels and Porsche hollow spoke turbo twist wheels on brand new Pirelli tires.
Owners manual, service manual and leather folio
Complete tool kit
Original air pump
Original jack and tire bag
2 original keys
Some service history


The bad:
It's leaking oil... the lower engine shield is off and a couple drops fell once parked after the test drive. Looked rather clean otherwise but dripping. No sure how much exactly.
Small scuff on the passenger side rear bumper
A/C does not work. Heat is fine.
Rear passenger seat belt is defective
Rear license plate light does not work
Small oil puddles after car is parked. Engine pulls strong and no oil burning issues.

No pics.
Thoughts?
Being over 25 years old makes it easier to import to the US.

[kreeshp]

Unless a PPI rules it out, it'd be prudent to budget for a worst case scenario: $20K engine rebuild. I don't want to sound alarmist and this could also be a $200 fix.

Without a proper diagnosis, it's impossible to say but you need to either get the car for a low enough price that a $20K rebuild is manageable, or confirm the cause of the oil leaks and price out its repair.

[SpenceRx]

Good advice. That bad though - wow. I was sort of thinking the oil leak was normal with these early 964s but I'm glad I checked. given the asking price 20K is not in scope. Hmmmm

[kreeshp]

I thought the same thing with my oil leaks when I bought my 964. It wasn't till I needed to get it safety inspected that I failed due to the oil leaks, and my mechanic confirmed the bad news.

Luckily, I bought mine when values were still stupidly (by today's standards) low so even after a $20K rebuild (which I planned for when I bought the car sight unseen, PPI-less), I'm still above water.

[tominizer]

First I heard that it's a $10K bill to rebuild a 964 motor. Now you guys are saying it's more like $20k??? That's insane. $20 rebuild ?!??! With these cars now pushing up into the $30K+ selling range, add a $20K motor rebuild and forget-about-it. Buy a 997 for less.

[NYNick]

Let's not over react, shall we? Get it on a lift with a competent Porsche specialist, and do the PPI.
We're all just guessing here.

[bbturbo]

20k for an engine rebuild? Sounds like someone is getting taken for a ride...

Bob Farmer, the first certified Porsche 930 mechanic in Indiana back in 1975, only charges $8900 for a top end overhaul and another grand for the bottom and its warrantied. I had my 964 engine quoted in his shop. No affiliation at all, but he is the best and most honest Porsche mechanic I have ever dealt with.

Check his site or give him a call if you are worried about it needing an engine rebuild--but a leak down will tell all during the PPI. Don't let anyone rip you off with such ridiculous engine build prices, or tell you they have "secrets to making more power than the other guy that is worth the premium."

I was quoted by Raby Aircooled Technology for 30k for my SC rebuild and he promised power gains nobody could provide. I literally choked on my coffee and I am still laughing from the phone call. Don't fall for such malarkey.

Bottom line on this car. If you like it, get it after a PPI, but dont let the PPI scare you either. Porsche dealer said my car needed $10,900 in work... Not even close to accurate prices... 964s are prone to leak oil. Its a factory issue with seals and VW cutting costs on the production. Chances are it needs a valve adjustment and the seals redone to eliminate the leak...pretty easy job, unless its at the case--then its a rebuild for a temp fix, but a liveable problem.

As for the rear seat belts not working, easy fix, or delete out for an RS look. Great opportunity to upgrade to different colored belts. The rust would be my biggest worry as over time it will need to be taken care of, which is a great opportunity for a new glass seal. Always a plus to doing work. PM me if you have any questions, but I just went through what you currently are two years ago with my 964 C4. They are great cars when taken care of.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by tominizer

First I heard that it's a $10K bill to rebuild a 964 motor. Now you guys are saying it's more like $20k??? That's insane. $20 rebuild ?!??! With these cars now pushing up into the $30K+ selling range, add a $20K motor rebuild and forget-about-it. Buy a 997 for less.

Yea, but you won't own a real Porsche
$20K is for a "breathed on" build, not stock, more like 1/2 of that depending on parts.
My of these cars benefited from the factory recall, in which the engines were completely rebuilt by the dealer, I had one on those cars, and much say, it was a lot of fun, and much faster than the "stock" C4 that I 1st drove in 89.

[bbturbo]

Originally Posted by Racerbvd

Yea, but you won't own a real Porsche

This is another good point. 964s are much better than 997s.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by bbturbo

This is another good point. 964s are much better than 997s.

At least they feel like a Porsche, not a Lexus.

[kreeshp]

Originally Posted by bbturbo

20k for an engine rebuild? Sounds like someone is getting taken for a ride...

Bob Farmer, the first certified Porsche 930 mechanic in Indiana back in 1975, only charges $8900 for a top end overhaul and another grand for the bottom and its warrantied. I had my 964 engine quoted in his shop.

It's one thing to get "quoted" and a completely other thing to have the work done and a bill put in front of you. A significant part of a $20K rebuild comes from replacing or upgrading other parts, while you're in there.

Top end rebuild for $8900? That's an outlier price, not the norm.

[creaturecat]

couple of drips and we are talking $20,000 rebuilds?
this would require further investigation.

my top end rebuild was $19000 bucks.

[bbturbo]

Kreeshp: Fully aware of quoted and getting engines broken down and needing new parts (pitted cams, clutch, etc). Extra parts needed is implied. Bob Farmer is honest with his prices and realistic with what it may need when it gets taken down. Yes, you can never stop other things needing replaced, and "upgrades" is another story on its own, but he knows what he is talking about and his prices are fair. I have never met anyone with more experience and hours spent on flow benching. If you think its unrealistic, it sounds like we are talking about different types of rebuilds, or you are going off of just one experience and build. If you wish to argue about it, PM me. This isn't your thread to argue.

Either way, I was suggesting a better alternative than paying a ridiculous amount for a stock rebuild from someone who has been doing it since 911s have been turbo-ed. Its not a 20k job for a normal rebuild. if you don't believe me, call a Bob Farmer direction; he is a real professional.

I am willing to bet, through, this C4 will not need rebuilt, but sealed.

[whiterabbit]

Get it checked. Sounds like a nice well taken care of car so in all likelihood its just an easy fix on the leak.

As for 20k offers! Some dealers will offer 30k on this car sight unseen and retail for 45k plus. If interested get a PPI done quickly.

[kreeshp]

Originally Posted by bbturbo

If you wish to argue about it, PM me. This isn't your thread to argue.

And neither is it yours to do so either.

Originally Posted by bbturbo

I am willing to bet, through, this C4 will not need rebuilt, but sealed.

Sure, kicking the can down the road, and letting the next owner deal with the problem is also an option. Me, I want to fix things only once.

[vracer]

First year AWD! Heavy and complicated, and it ain't gonna be all that nimble. Parts? I 'think' the C2 or possibly later C4 are better cars

[SpenceRx]

Thanks for the pertinent discussion everyone. Sounds like a PPI is in order - I'll see if seller is willing to cooperate.

I do worry about the gasketless design of these early 964s.

I'm tempted to just buy it and drive it for now as is. The current owner hasn't driven it much so I worry it's leaking more than he thinks.

[bbturbo]

my 1990 had gaskets installed, even though it was not designed for it. I have been told to go both ways with doing it "correctly". Let us know what you decide and the results!

[CountD]

Originally Posted by vracer

First year AWD! Heavy and complicated, and it ain't gonna be all that nimble. Parts? I 'think' the C2 or possibly later C4 are better cars

It is very, very complex AWD compared to the later models. Problem is the 1989 Carrera 4 is almost an icon. I am not a 964 fan but I should have bought one three years ago when no one wanted them and they were going for a song.

It was one hugely expensive car in 1989. I drove a red one back then that had about 600 miles on it. Good times - and that's why I would probably buy one. It would be the only 911 that I would consider in red.

[Matt Monson]

I wouldn't want to own a 964 C4. In addition to a $15-20k engine rebuild when the time comes it is really easy to throw $5-7k at that gearbox and it's dohikies.

As for laughing about a quote from Raby? He's one if the best. He's a better builder than Farmer by a mile, and Farmer is a good builder. Raby flies around the country with Tony Callas lecturing on behalf of SSF regarding rebuilding and servicing the m96 and m97 engines. He builds the most bad arse type IVs we've ever seen. He is a Porsche engine specialist. Farmer is and old skool Porsche generalist. Maybe you don't need what Raby is selling, but claiming he's selling Malarkey is just straight up ignorance.