Worst PPI in history?

[groovydude]

OK, I'm exaggerating a bit in the title for effect, but here's the story.

I saw this '82 911 for sale at a small, classic car dealer on the outskirts of St. Louis. The car had 116K miles, and the title records indicated this was accurate. The seller was asking $30K which seemed like a fair starting point to me. Aside from the reasonable mileage and exterior condition, what attracted me most was the fact that the service/repair history was well documented - it had a repaint, new clutch, and a transmission rebuild at 94K, new rockers and motor mounts at 97K, and a top end with chain tensioner update at 104K. So I figured most of the big ticket stuff was taken care of. I negotiated a price of 29K with the seller.

I asked if he would take the car to the premiere Porsche shop in St. Louis for a PPI. He said that was too far, he couldn't afford to have two guys make two trips into town. But, according to him, the head mechanic from that shop recently opened his own shop nearby, and he would take it there if I arranged an appointment.

So I called this guy. He's got a website and seems legit. He said he was booked for the next two weeks. I begged a bit, and he agreed to squeeze me in on Monday (this was on Friday). He reported the following:

>Repaint was good, but not great, otherwise no exterior issues.
>Interior was missing a small plastic bezel on the Targa top, and there was some discoloration around the window switches.
>Window stops were set too high.
>He documented two oil seepage points under the car, both minor.
>Front brake pads were at 5%, and rotors would have to be replaced when fixed.
>AC didn't work.
>Some roughness running cold, probably a bad WUR, but otherwise the car ran great.

I decided I could live with these issues so I accepted the deal as negotiated and bought the car.

He was right about all these things, except the last point. The car barely ran when it arrived at my door. A lot of searching on this board and poking around, and here's what I came up with.

First, he missed the following.

>There were no visors in the car.
>Targa top can't be removed without a little nudge with a screw driver.
>Targa top seals are fair to poor.
>Targa underside vinyl is peeling away at the corner.
>Shoulder belts had been removed and a PO had installed lap belts.
>Turn signals did not work
>Back up lights did not work
>The heater blower and the fresh air blower did not work
>Windshield washers did not work
>The fuel gauge only works above half full.
>The clock does not work.
>There was a LOT of discoloration on the interior leather.
>The front carpet panes were missing (under the floor mats).
>The parcel deck was quite warped and the leather has been messed with - it's just not clean and not 100% original.
>There was extreme seepage around the oil level sender.
>There is some corrosion at the ends of the heat exchangers, and it doesn't look like a tight seal.
>There's some seepage under the transmission case, at a place that looks like a small access panel.

>The transmission arrived almost inoperable. I could only find 2 gears and the shifter was bent to the right. After a lot of poking and digging, I came to the conclusion that the shifter and coupler bushings had completely blown out, and that someone - probably the shipping truck driver - had tried to force it looking for reverse. This may just have been horrible timing of course. The dealer swears that the car drove when it left his lot.

I replaced the shifter and all the bushings, and the car drives and I can find all 6 gears. But it's clear that the clutch cable needs to be replaced, and the helper spring is weak.

>The engine was running poorly. I replaced the O2 sensor relay, and it greatly improved. But the warm idle is not right (and cold too of course). I have a new (rebuilt) WUR on the way and it seems possible/likely that this, along with timing and mixture adjustments and the car will possibly run very well. When warmed up it's strong and smooth, except for the idle.

I have not had the car all the way up on stands yet, so there may be more. But now that I've had a chance to troubleshoot and start to make repairs, it's clear that the car was a mess but that I also dodged a bullet. The things he missed, though numerous, are all pretty small-ticket things, but the parts alone will still add up to around $1,000, maybe a bit more. And I wasn't counting on HOURS of work just to get the car working. But the service records are reassuring that I (hopefully) won't have any big-ticket repairs in the near future.

I voiced my displeasure to the mechanic after discovering about half of the missed items on the first day. I'm guessing he never drove the car more than from his parking lot to his lift, and just took the word of the dealer that it drove well. He was clearly embarrassed that he missed the belts and visors, which he knows is a sign that he didn't really inspect the interior or electrical. He's offered to send me new(ish) belts. This will cover the cost to me of the inspection, but I'm still irked. Had he done his job properly, especially in reporting transmission issues, the electrical issues, and in the extent of the CIS issues, I would have renegotiated with the seller. I doubt there's much I can do at this point, I'm in Washington and he's in St Louis. But I haven't ruled out legal action entirely. At the very least I'll out this guy (and the dealer) in this thread, and see if I can't find another place on the internet to review him, as soon as my seat belts arrive.

Any thoughts?

[Matt Monson]

What's your car worth?

[Rick Brooklyn]

That's shameful. Totally out the PPI guy and the dealer, at the very least. If I were you I'd ask the dealer to take the car back and pay your money back, and see what he says.

That's a stark reminder that cars that read fantastic on paper may not be as good as they sound.

Having said that, you sound like you know what you're doing with these cars. If it were me, I'd be scratching my head, feeling that something's very off with the car but having no idea wtf is going on. Also the paint on that car may not look great but it's a very beautiful color, so if you end up sorting it out you'll end with a gorgeous car.

[groovydude]

When I started shopping, I felt I would only deal with someone privately. But I saw this car somewhere on line, and I felt the dealer was reputable. For one, he only sells classics so he should be used to discriminating buyers. And when I called about the car he told me I had to wait a couple of days because a foreign buyer had just sent someone out to inspect it. He could have just started dealing with me. Regardless, he's a dealer, and I never took his word on the condition of the car. He had too much to gain in exaggerating. But the mechanic has no excuse.

I agree about the color, that's one of the reasons I pulled the plug. And the paint is very decent, only a couple of small chips and some minor orange peel. Once I get the mechanical issues fixed I'll see about buffing or sanding that out, and I'll have a go at the Fuchs this winter. I will sort all this out eventually, and I'm counting on having a sweet ride by next spring.

As to value, I thought it was worth what I paid at the time, given the current market, although now I think I paid about 3K too much. I've been watching this board and eBay auctions for 80-83 SCs since early spring. I've seen several + or - 100k mile cars sell in the mid to high 20s and although some or most of them might have had nicer leather & carpet, few had documentation and almost none had rebuilt engines and transmissions (I think many people are way overselling the term "unmolested"), and many were white (no thanks).

[dad911]

Did shop do a compression/leakdown or look for broken head studs? check for rust? That's the stuff I'd be worried about...........

[Rick Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by groovydude

As to value, I thought it was worth what I paid at the time, given the current market, although now I think I paid about 3K too much. I've been watching this board and eBay auctions for 80-83 SCs since early spring. I've seen several + or - 100k mile cars sell in the mid to high 20s and although some or most of them might have had nicer leather & carpet, few had documentation and almost none had rebuilt engines and transmissions (I think many people are way overselling the term "unmolested"), and many were white (no thanks).

If it had been as good as advertised - paint, tranny, clutch and all - it would have been a phenomenal deal at $29k, especially buying from a dealer who probably doesn't even get out of bed for less than 20% profit.

As you describe it - rough engine, bad tranny and clutch, messy interior, seepage etc. - I think that's lower than $26k, but given that you clearly know how to work on the car, that helps a lot.

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by groovydude

So I called this guy. He's got a website and seems legit. He said he was booked for the next two weeks. I begged a bit, and he agreed to squeeze me in on Monday (this was on Friday).

This is a major contributor to the less than perfect (aka: quickie) PPI. When a small shop (probably one-man, in this instance) says to a likely paying customer that they are booked for two weeks, then that means they are slamming busy at the time and probably have well over two weeks of work already in the shop. As you have unfortunately found out, "too busy to do it right now", means exactly that. I'm not saying that you got what you deserved for "begging a bit", but persuading the mechanic to take on a job that he did not have time for was a mistake.

[McLovin]

Pull those lower valve covers.

Then the fun really begins.

[NYNick]

Reading this thread at first, I saw some red flags immediately.
1)Dealer
2)a PPI place not of your choosing
3)a PPI place 'slammed'
4)a PPI sorely lacking relevant details

I think you dodged a bullet, and also think legal action is aggressive, unless the engine turns out to be a total mess. At this point, I would've had that thing up on a lift and spent several hours checking out the engine.

It's tough buying cars long distance, but do-able.

[blau911]

I had S-Cargo out of California do a ppi for my first 911 ( a 71s coupe with a 100l centerfill plastic racre tank) way back in 98'. Car had problems shifting into 2nd gear. Mechanic told me that it was only a clutch cable adjustment, which they would do immediately for me if I decided to buy the car. Bought the car, and left it with them to do the adjustment. They called back the next day and told me that they adjusted the clutch and it didn't help. They needed to pull the tranny and replace 2nd gear synchros. Cost me another $2500, which If diagnosed properly would have been my basis for negotiating a betterprice.
The laughable part is that I only paid $10,500 for the car, and we allknow what it's worth now........

[Rick Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by NYNick

and also think legal action is aggressive

I think legal action is totally fine, even if he probably would spend more in lawyer fees than he could get as compensation.

Hard to go after the dealer, with all the usual bulls*** boilerplate "sold as is" which surely applies here (although by all means they should be outed as a bad dealer in every forum and web resource available), but the PPI guy f***ed up big time and he should be made accountable for it, just like any of us would be accountable if we acted with gross negligence in our lines of business.

The OP ended up spending $30k of his money, which surely cost him many hours of hard, honest work, because in the best scenario this clown was too lazy and careless to do the job properly. And I don't even want to contemplate the thought that the dealer might have had something to do with it.

[Matt Monson]

Remind me not to allow any of you litigious bastards to get a PPI on any if my cars when I go to sell.

The mechanic made done mistakes. Good luck getting a judgement based on that. You won't prove he lied on the PPI, and he likely didn't.

It's a crappy unfortunate situation. It's a 30 year old used car. It has some things wrong with it. Move on and don't let it ruin you life.

[NYNick]

Disagree, Rich. He picked him, or was talked into picking him. It's the buyers responsibility to dictate or discuss exactly what will be done during the PPI. There are as many variations of PPI's as there are mechanics...who knows what you'll get for your money? You can't just show up with $300-$500 (in this case it was arranged by phone?), to a guy you've never met, and expect it to be what you want. Compression test? Transmission evaluation? Oil leaks? Paint? Interior? Valve covers? Window switches? Radio? etc etc etc.

You're BUYING the PPI as well as the car. It's your money. It should be spelled out beforehand, even though we ASSUME certain issues will be inspected.

Personally, I would never use a shop that didn't come highly recommended from several sources for this kind of $$$ purchase.

Legal action? If they had a signed, detailed agreement for the PPI, maybe. Otherwise, I doubt there's a case.

[mreid]

^Matt nailed it.

[sm70911]

Nice color on the car.
Did you actually go and see the car before you bought it ?
Its hard to do when you want a car but you should have made him take it to a shop of your choosing, if he thought the deal was going to go away I'm pretty sure he would have arranged for it to got the shop of your choice.
Secondly if he wouldn't do that couldn't you have paid for a company to tow the car to a shop of your choice ?

Yes the mechanic is at fault, but Mr Monson's advice is golden "It's a 30 year old used car. It has some things wrong with it. Move on and don't let it ruin you life"

It's the same as the steering wheel issue you have, you learned something. Chalk it up to experience take your licks and move on.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by mreid

^Matt nailed it.

Nick nailed what I didn't spell out. What was specified to be included on the ppi. I wouldn't even assume the wheels came off and brakes inspected unless listed on the inspection list.

Buyers whine about how they need to spend $300-400 half a dozen times before they find their perfect car. More interstate buyers need to get on planes and inspect cars themselves. Its a $30k purchase. Spend $500 on a plane ticket and go see it. Take personal responsibility.

[crb07]

I say it is water under the bridge. Post the shops name that did the PPI so Pelicans in the future have a heads up. Pay to have your car moved to PPI location of your choice is the lesson here. Preferably a shop that is recommended by another Pelican. Maybe a letter to the dealer and PPI shop with a list of problems and why you are not happy. Maybe you can come to an agreement on a partial refund. But to actually go after them I would think is a waste of money and time.
Great color car. Sort it out and enjoy.

[Matt Monson]

One other thing, the dealer has no obligation to drive the car to a ppi for you. Or if they do they should charge you for their time. If you fly in, you can drive it to the shop of your choice and wait for the ppi.

[NYNick]

I bought a muscle car once, 3000 miles away. It took me a few phone calls to the GTO Club guys all over the country, including the President, to find the right guy in California close enough to inspect the car.

Turns out the guy restored GTO's for a living, thought he might know the car, and was happy to take a drive to check it out, take pictures and even video the engine and sound. Charged me $100.

When he got back to me he basically said the car was so good, if I passed he was going to buy it...but only if I passed on it first. This BTW, was the same price as the Targa in this thread, but like 8 years ago.

People are mostly honest, so my glass is half full. If you do your homework when buying $30,000 cars, you should be fine. But you still gotta do the work.

[groovydude]

Thanks for all your comments!

I doubt any PPI would include draining the oil and popping off the valve covers, unless the buyer paid an extra couple of hundred. I figured that the engine having been rebuilt 12K miles ago gives me some assurance about the head studs.

We all have probably had an experience similar to blau911, I certainly have. So when the mechanic told me "it's probably a bad WUR", I realized it could be a number of other things. But at least he told me that the car was having warm up issues.

I weighed the idea of flying to SL to inspect the car myself. But I had a budget in buying this, and I could easily see 5 or 6 plane flights across the country to look at cars, and weeks of personal time, if I were to have that mindset. Pretty soon my budget is blown just looking. I knew I was rolling the dice a bit.

I doubt I'll sue, it's just likely to be more time wasted. But I'll "out" this guy here, and everywhere else I can. I know I didn't have a point-by-point list, but clearly when some "expert" doesn't see the fact that obvious parts are missing in the car, he f***ed up. I noticed the belts and visors in under a minute. The inspection cost me $250. Used belts will cost me that much, so if he follows through on the belt offer then it cost me nothing, which is about what it was worth.

The last thing I'll say is about value. I don't think it was chance that I bought the car from someone in the mid-west. This car, as is, would have cost me $3-5K more at any dealer in Seattle. We're in a very hot economy here, lots of classic car buyers, and no inventory. Had I lived in another city I probably would have just waited it out for a local car to show up. So I'm not crying that I have to spend an extra $1-2K to get the car up to snuff. Just annoyed as hell at the time and inconvenience.