Selling car without a title

WANNA930 · 09-20-2015, 08:28 AM

Ok, for some reason this is coming up quite a bit lately. Can someone with some real legal background shed some light on this subject. I know some states like NY do not title cars of a certain year and older. I also believe certain states just use a bill of sale for certain years.

I was once told by a lawyer that without a title the seller does not have legal ownership of the vehicle and therefore has no legal right to sell it. A bill of sale is not legal ownership if the state issues titles for the year of vehicle the seller is selling??

Title Co's do not exist anymore as far as I know? I once bought a car on bill of sale and past owner claimed ownership when I needed him to sign off car. Cost me payoff money to get him to sign.

It seams like it is a bit of a gray area and I am curious what others think? What do you consider a legal bill of sale?

pnut_lee · 09-20-2015, 09:25 AM

Maine does not issue titles for vehicles 15 years or older. I've recently learned that our registrations, which are transferable are proof of ownership. The back of my registration looks like the back of a title.

vintagecarlover · 09-20-2015, 01:55 PM

85 and older in ga don't get titled. Bill of sale only. Legally transferred to any other state where titles are issued. It's not a problem

brianvb · 09-20-2015, 01:59 PM

It is VERY DIFFICULT to export units to Canada without a title.

whiterabbit · 09-20-2015, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagecarlover

85 and older in ga don't get titled. Bill of sale only. Legally transferred to any other state where titles are issued. It's not a problem

I have managed over the years to get much older cars titled in GA as long as they already have a title from another state. Last year I bought a 71 Alfa and had no problem getting title. Personally I won't buy a car without a title unless it was worth less than $500.

Westy · 09-20-2015, 03:51 PM

Different states have different laws. You need to confine your info specifically to your state. Out here you can simply publically post the car as a lien, and send info to the last registered owner. The trouble being, someone could claim it. And this was quite a few years ago. Laws change. About 20 years ago I watched a 69 Z28 go off to the squasher cause DMV said the title was too abstract and the vehicle couldn't be registered. I tried to fight them, but you know how that turned out!

pnut_lee · 09-20-2015, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagecarlover

Legally transferred to any other state where titles are issued. It's not a problem

Not entirely true. Some (perhaps many) states require previous owners registration along with BOS at a minimum. Registration in seller's name is proof of prior ownership.

Matt Monson · 09-20-2015, 04:46 PM

Colorado does what is called a bonded title. Its basically insurance against oldvtitle issues while doing due diligence on the history. A public notice goes in the paper with a titlevsearch, etc. After about three months with no red flags they will issue you a clean CO title.

Won't help me with a car I bought last year though. Cup Cars have vins but come from motorsports without a title. You just have to buy and sell them with bos. I think they do that because they aren't dot tested offered at legal. Its how they make sure they never get registered.

ficke · ficke's Garage

I immediately wonder who really owns a car if it is sold without a title, stolen property?, landlord? girlfriend? parents with child permission?
I stay away from no title cars. pretty much a deal killer for me.

You have to have a title in AZ to register it for the road.
If you bought a car from a state that does not issue titles on older cars like Ga. or Maine you have to get a bonded title in AZ. to be able to drive it on the street. which means contacting the previous owner and getting a release form them or getting a letter from the last state the car was registered in saying there are no known records of the car, etc. Paying for a bond, sometimes paying for title research, etc.
Very big hassle to buy a car without title and it better be a very valuable car for me to buy a car without the title to be willing to spend the money and time to title it for registration in AZ.

dienstuhr · dienstuhr's Garage

Title isn't ownership - it's evidence of ownership. As noted above different states have different requirements regarding titles and their registration. I do not think I'd ever say that a person has no ownership rights without a title in their name. Your lawyer friend was probably referring to specific state law.

Cheers

d.

OK-944 · 09-21-2015, 09:49 AM

I purchased my 85.5 944 eight years ago in Vermont with no title. Came very close to selling it a couple of years ago to a gentleman from Ohio (glad I didn't!) At any rate...had I sold to him, I would have needed to create a bill of sale, signed by both myself and the buyer, then have this bill notarized in Vermont prior to the new owner taking the car to Ohio. Not sure about other states.

Unobtanium-inc · 09-23-2015, 03:16 PM

NY is a no title state for old cars, so it is legal to sell on a notorized bill of sale, all states have to accept this, it's state reciprocity, part of being in the UNION of these United States. BUT, and this is a big BUT, it all depends on how hard you want to fight it, you are right, but it may take a big fight if a person at the DMV wants to dig in their heals.
What you can't do without a title is export a car. I've seen guys try it with a Bill of Sale, Dealer paperwork, even a not from their mama, but without a title, it can't leave the port.
If you get someone nice at the DMV things can go really easily. I bought a trailer one time from CT, the guy gave me a CT Bill of Sale, but he messed it up somehow. The lady said to go out to my car and get my friend to "fix" the paperwork, I did and left with tags for my trailer. But I've also had it go real bad at the DMV.

--Adam

WANNA930 · 09-29-2015, 10:54 AM

Ok so if a state requires a title in your name within a certain amount of days is it legal for seller to sell without title in their name?

If a state does not issue titles do you not sill have to register the car even if not for road use under your name? Race cars fly under this radar but again removing a vin and making a dedicated race car out of it doesn't prove it is yours on the side of the road on a trailer with an angry officer.

I don't see how a bill of sale only can be a legal sale of a motor vehicle today? By the way NYS does not have titles but they do have a transferrable registration that needs to be signed.

With all the flipping TV shows it is getting more popular to find cars for sale that have changed hands 2 or 3 times and never registered beyond the original seller. Used to be no big deal but we are now talking about $50k cars not $10k cars the state wants their money.

lyonsfin · lyonsfin's Garage

I live in GA and CT and no titles on older cars in either. I have never had an issue with a Bill of Sale in either states as GA does a VIN check to see if reported stolen and CT has a way to check in-state VIN at DMV and must get VIN check for out of state cars. Never had a problem selling to toher states or overseas until now. NJ is a bear when it comes to registering non-titled vehicles without a current registration. How ever they have an Improper Evidence Procedure for these types of vehicles. It sounds like a pain, but... I would guess other states have a similar process

Jay993 · Jay993's Garage

Too add to Adam's post... plenty of cars leave the country without titles- they are usually stolen cars and a lot of them are older 911s. Of course the there are people with "connections" at the docks, etc. But for the rest of us honest, hard working people... Yeah, no title means you're f*cked

Unobtanium-inc · 09-29-2015, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WANNA930

Ok so if a state requires a title in your name within a certain amount of days is it legal for seller to sell without title in their name?

If a state does not issue titles do you not sill have to register the car even if not for road use under your name? Race cars fly under this radar but again removing a vin and making a dedicated race car out of it doesn't prove it is yours on the side of the road on a trailer with an angry officer.

I don't see how a bill of sale only can be a legal sale of a motor vehicle today? By the way NYS does not have titles but they do have a transferrable registration that needs to be signed.

With all the flipping TV shows it is getting more popular to find cars for sale that have changed hands 2 or 3 times and never registered beyond the original seller. Used to be no big deal but we are now talking about $50k cars not $10k cars the state wants their money.

In order to get a transferable reg in NY you have to insure the car and it takes up to six months to get the transferable reg, they first give you a non-transferable, but if you just want to sell the car NY says to sell it on a Bill of Sale.