Is this just the market we're in? Do I have a right to be angry?

ENENEN · 03:47 PM

I've been looking for a while, and have really been hoping to find something on Pelican, since I'd rather buy from an enthusiast than some dealer/flipper/random guy on eBay. I finally saw an ad as soon as it popped up, that looked to be exactly what I'm looking for. 1 view. Called the seller, first caller. Awesome, this thing is mine! Had a good conversation, which continued through email, where I offered to put a deposit on the car. The seller says, "I'll tell you what, I'll give you right of first refusal through the weekend" which I agree to. The week goes on, and there are scheduling conflicts, but on Thursday afternoon I find out that the seller is now available the next day. I take off work Friday, and leave work right away to catch a flight. By the time I get home, I find out from the seller that he has another buyer coming Friday afternoon to look at the car, and I say, "no big deal, as long as I still have right of first refusal." Then the seller says, "I think this guy is really serious, maybe you should just hold off to see if he wants to buy it before you buy a plane ticket." I instantly pick up the phone to call the seller, and the conversation goes like this:

"I thought you gave me right of first refusal through the weekend?"

"Well, yeah, but this guy is really serious, and I'm just trying to be fair."

"You gave me right of first refusal through the weekend, how is it fair to turn around and sell it to somebody else when I'm already making travel arrangements? Can you please just give me until the end of the day Friday?"

"Ok, let me call the other guy and see what I can do."

So, I buy a ticket, pack my bag, and hop in the shower. When I get out I have a text from the seller saying that the other buyer is two hours away and he'll let me know if he buys it. I cancel my plane ticket for a full refund (thanks Delta!), and hop in the Jeep and take a road-trip to visit my cousin in NYC for the weekend, since my bag was already packed.

Never heard back from the seller until I texted him the next day, "so did the other guy buy it?" To which he responded with, "yep." Thanks a lot.

So do I have a right to be upset, or is to be expected with how these cars are selling? Why tell somebody it's theirs to buy through the weekend if you don't mean it? I just don't get it. I've started to wonder if the "scheduling conflicts" and "other buyer" were just to avoid a PPI or speed up the process, but that could also just be me trying to make myself feel better about missing out on what looked to be a good car.

Oh well, the search continues. Still had a hell of a time in New York.

Skwerl · 01-18-2016, 03:46 PM

I'd be pretty annoyed if I were you, but you have the benefit of knowing you were also quite seriously interested. The seller doesn't know if you're a flake or tire kicker who will just hem and haw and lowball, and when it comes to selling a car, most of the time it's the first guy to show up with the actual cash to buy that wins out. I just hope it didn't go to a dealer or flipper. It may have been the seller's mistake for offering first right of refusal rather than just saying "if you get the money here before anyone else it's yours."

logan2z · 01-18-2016, 03:47 PM

Poor form on the seller's part but I guess he went with the "a bird in the hand" approach. FWIW I'd be annoyed too.

Matt Monson · 01-18-2016, 04:31 PM

I don't know if I would blame the current market. There have always been a hole sellers out there who do this shyte. You have every right to be pissed. I would be. I might even be naming names.

timchar · timchar's Garage

The seller wasn't a man of his word. I'd be ticked off too. Be patient, smart and have money ready when it's time to pull the trigger. Pelican shouldn't be the only place you are looking. Good luck, Tim

Rick Brooklyn · 01-18-2016, 05:31 PM

Flakes and tire kickers rarely book a flight to go see a car. I'd be furious. I have a few stories myself, although not as egregious as this one.

CountD · 01-18-2016, 05:33 PM

Ian, you have a right to be anything you want to be, but as you know if you've been reading or bumping around here for a bit the following:

1) Most of the deals for any 911s of any vintage happen in hours, if not minutes. They do not happen in days or a week. If a good, clean car comes up for sale it's usually pegged by myriad people as such. And the race is on and that race is won by time whether you like it or not. You waited days - almost a week.

2) The seller probably isn't a bad guy. Why? Because most people do not know how to sell something, or even know the etiquette for selling something. Most people get nervous selling something. And when you combine nerves, anxiety, coupled with timing - the guy whose on the ball with the money usually gets the car.

3) The seller probably got offered more money than what you were paying because you were too slow. And being slow means a hassle for a lot of sellers. Guaranteed this guy offered $500 to $1000 or more to be there first in line. Persistence, time, and money go a long way in a deal. The more time a car lingers and is out there, the more time offers come to the table. It's the game.

4) You're way behind the times. It just isn't this market. It's all markets. There are so many more people in this world now who want and can buy a 911 than there was even five years ago. You are competing will all these people - all the time. Not to take the wind out of your sails but the only person you should be angry with is yourself.

5) You should have flown out that day or that night if you wanted it.

6) Don't put this all on the seller. People get so much anxiety over the simplest of deals, that's why people usually sell to their neighbor or the guy at church. Heck, my 911 was offered to the sellers neighbor and he passed on it for $2600. Then he offered it to other neighbors. Then it went on craigs.

I wish you luck, but if you have learned anything you have to put emotions aside and get ready to pull the trigger now. If that means flying, or driving though the night with a sack of cash, so be it.

plumber · 01-18-2016, 05:34 PM

What kind of car are you looking for?

Ronnie's.930 · 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ENENEN

So do I have a right to be upset . . .

Yep. Based on your info, the seller is sporting a microscopic Richard (even smaller than we - or is that "wee" - Turbo owners have) and even more diminutive Sesame seeds! And I'm with Matt; I would be naming names here and talking all manner of ****, ta' boot!

amazongreenie · amazongreenie's Garage

Was the car for sale in Canton CT ?

73.5TinPA · 01-18-2016, 06:14 PM

You can't trust strangers, they don't trust you, either.
That might be different if you were a PCA active member & another club member was the seller.

To be angry is a losing proposition. Just let it go & chalk it up to a learning experience.
The only thing you could have done better is to fly out immediately, but your job came first.

You should try to find something closer to home. Closer to Spring more cars will be on offer.

Flynt · 01-18-2016, 06:49 PM

Every right to be pissed. Especially if first right of refusal was his idea.
Sounds like somebody else may have offered more, or showed up with cash. If that's the case, double thumbs down for the seller.

The quick and the dead in this market. You've got to hustle - Can't give anybody a chance.

mattC2993 · 01-18-2016, 07:13 PM

I agree with CountD said. It was the same when I was looking for my 356A coupe a few years back. The market was so hot that if you couldn't show up within hours of an ad posting you had zero chance. In the end buying via word of mouth was the only way. Make some contacts, network and hope that you get first dibs on an unadvertised sale. I ended up making a couple of trips and coming back empty handed but got a car in the end.

Cajundaddy · Cajundaddy's Garage

Bad form on the part of the seller but not the end of the world.

In my neck of the woods, a first right of refusal needs to be backed up with a cash deposit to ink it. Once cash changes hands you have an agreement. Until then it is polite conversation and leaves the back door open for weasels to sneak in. I have still seen deals go sour with a cash deposit to hold the car but it is a lot less likely.

That old saying often still applies when buying vintage cars. The early bird gets the worm.

mickey356 · 01-18-2016, 08:21 PM

I've bought and sold a few cars and I never even considered the fact that was any kind of "code" or etiquette to either side, well not unless money has changed hands.
Pissed? Yeah, I guess you can be but from what you said you'd been looking for the "perfect car" for sometime now, and when it comes up you wait?
I've been offered similar proposals like "could you hold it" or "let me know if someone else is interested".... I told them all I'd do my best to keep them informed and the first person to show up with money got the car. And that's what happened.
If you're looking for a specific car you should be ready to move the minute it comes up,even if that means getting on a plane, and you still may lose out. No guarantees and you should know that.
It sucks you didn't make it happen but as someone already suggested, maybe you should look a little closer to home so you can be the first in line.
Just don't put any weight on anything verbal going forward. If you HAVE to get on a plane then be ready to make a bank transfer to deposit and get an email agreement on the deal before you go

Matt Monson · 01-18-2016, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmax

Tough guy, this seller could simply be trying to please everyone.

No tough guy about anything. Would I jump straight to naming names? No, I would internet stalk him. Maybe the seller is the flipper pretending to be a good honorable pelican and lied about the whole thing to keep a fish on the hook while he trolled for a better above asking offer? Just because I say I might call someone out for a move like this doesn't mean that's the first place I go with it. I have to come to the conclusion that the guy is a dick and likely to do this to someone else before I would publish who it is. I wouldn't name names because the jerk pissed me off. I would name names for the good of the commuity if I thought that it was likely that someone else was going to deal with the guy's internet games again so they could be warned.

The seller did NOT have to offer to hold the car with no deposit. The buyer offered a deposit. The seller basically said,"No, I trust you enough to not require that." and then makes an offer to hold the car without the deposit for a specified amount of time. The buyer was still within his window. The seller went back on his word. He was the one who broke the trust that had been created. He didn't have to create the trust to start with. I wouldn't hold a car without a deposit. Why offer something like that?

Does it make him a bad guy? No. He's got his own reasons and he's not here to defend himself. But on the surface it was a dick move and the buyer has a right to be miffed by being treated that way by another fellow human being.

mooty · 01-18-2016, 09:01 PM

it's not the mkt.
it's the stupid seller.
usually if i am the seller, i will not give a buyer first right of refusal. i simply tell the buyer, i will do everything i can to match buyer's schedule to show the car and to get the car to ppi, however, whomever's money hits my account first, gets the car. (there are many flaking buyers, not the op, but i know too many)

HOWEVER IF I SAID A BUYER HAVE FIRST RIGHT OF REFUSAL UNTIL CERTAIN TIME, then even if the another buyer paid me 100k more, i will still wait for the first refusal guy to refuse before i take the bigger offer.

i have turn down very large amount of over-offer bc i told buyers that i will hold the car until xxx date

conversely i have seller who held the car for me despite higher offer b/c they promised me the car.

karma is a *****. dont be upset. maybe it is a bad car.

Ronnie's.930 · 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattC2993

I agree with CountD said.

Despite my "micro Richard" thoughts about the seller, I too think that Count Dracula makes some good points that are inDICKative of the current market climate and some of the people that take part in it. Butt the way I see it, it is a real shame to excuse bad behavior with "that's how things work now" (not saying that the Count is excusing bad behavior with his post, or criticizing him in any way - I think his post is a reflection on what he sees happening and not a statement regarding his own values system).

While not of the crimes against humanity variety in this instance, to say one thing and do another is dishonorable behavior none the less, and to excuse it by saying "that's current reality" seems weak (again, not talking about the Count, but the mind-think in general).

This topic, while entirely different, reminds me of the guy who posted here over a year ago, beating his chest about how he bought a 911 for pennies on the dollar from some old fart that was not aware of the car's market value. He thought he would get "atta boys", butt instead, got beaten on by many of the guys here - dishonorable behavior got what it deserved in that instance.

pmax · pmax's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

No tough guy about anything. Would I jump straight to naming names? No, I would internet stalk him. Maybe the seller is the flipper pretending to be a good honorable pelican and lied about the whole thing to keep a fish on the hook while he trolled for a better above asking offer? Just because I say I might call someone out for a move like this doesn't mean that's the first place I go with it. I have to come to the conclusion that the guy is a dick and likely to do this to someone else before I would publish who it is. I wouldn't name names because the jerk pissed me off. I would name names for the good of the commuity if I thought that it was likely that someone else was going to deal with the guy's internet games again so they could be warned.

If you know for certain the seller's playing these games, then sure, call him out so the community will benefit, otherwise the seller deserves the benefit of the doubt given he's not here to defend himself.

Quote:

The seller did NOT have to offer to hold the car with no deposit. The buyer offered a deposit. The seller basically said,"No, I trust you enough to not require that." and then makes an offer to hold the car without the deposit for a specified amount of time. The buyer was still within his window. The seller went back on his word. He was the one who broke the trust that had been created. He didn't have to create the trust to start with. I wouldn't hold a car without a deposit. Why offer something like that?

The Friday courtesy call was the seller informing of the new situation.
The OP should have bought it immediately and taken the risk if he really wanted the car.

mooty · 01-18-2016, 09:05 PM

" The OP should have bought it immediately and taken the risk if he really wanted the car."
===> i do that very often. but if the seller offered me first right of refusal, they i have until then. otherwise what is the "first right of refusal". to me money is not what's being argued here, it's character and integrity.

yes, i konw seller is not here to defend himself and we have only one side of the story. as such, comments are made based on the side of the story we hear. this is not a court of justice.

certainly if the seller showed up and said "well i never said first right of refusal, i said first guy to pay up" then my comment will change.