993 Value with Records vs without Records

[Dynamik]

I'm looking for some help in determining the difference in value between a 993 with service records and window sticker vs the identical car without records and window sticker. The short story is I bought a 993 C4S and part of the agreement/contract was the service records, including the window sticker, would go with the sale of the car. This was a private party sale. So I fly in, full payment made, pickup the car, and the owner informs me the records are in storage and he'll gather them shortly and send them to me. So 15 months and many e-mails and phone calls later I still do not have them. This is clearly a breach of contract along with a few other items promised in the sale agreement. I can quantify the value of the other items but I need help determining the diminished value of the car as it stands without service records and without the window sticker. This is heading down a legal path so I need more than opinions, something that can prove cars like this with records and original window sticker are more valued with records than without.

[CountD]

My opinion is, as these cars have become extremely valuable and 'collectible', as many Ferrari models are and have been, that paperwork is pretty important. A Ferrari without records lacks pedigree and a car lacking provenance and pedigree is equal to money lost.

Although it is hard to determine the exact dollar amount, to have no records means everything to some people --- and nothing to others.

Since currently there are no ways to appraise something without books or records, as people don't usually appraise records or a window sticker, I still still say that the car would take a $2500-$4500 hit. Why? Because there is very important information in records for these now expensive cars that would answer questions like when was this done? Should I do this, as the mileage says I should, but I don't know if it was done and I may waste money and time doing it?

I'd say $4k easily. I am a records and paperwork guy myself. I don't write down every time I fill the car at a gas station (my buddy used to do this), but I keep everything. Every car I ever buy used I want with records and receipts. The Volvo XC90 and two Audi TTs I bought had stacks of them. That's why I bought those cars.

[Matt Monson]

I'm not going to even attempt to place a value on records without mileage and pictures of the car's current condition.

[NYNick]

Disagree. If it's not a Turbo, you're not talking 6 figures, or even high 5 figures. A carfax would work wonders, a call or visit to your local dealership should bring up a long computerized history as well. A little self homework would go a long way. Of course, a low low mileage car is less important than a middle to high mileage car, but a $2.5-4.5K hit for no paper work? Man Count, you're tough.

But not as tough as Dynamik. You're talking legal ramifications because the seller hasn't provided paperwork or the window sticker? What is it? The first or last 993 ever built? Holy OCD Batman! This car better be extra special.

Besides, it's a car, not a Rembrandt. Air cooled are hot, 993's especially. I'm guessing you'd have zero problems selling it tomorrow at or above what you paid with just a carfax and a COA.

Litigious society indeed.

[KNS]

Originally Posted by NYNick

But not as tough as Dynamik. You're talking legal ramifications because the seller hasn't provided paperwork or the window sticker? What is it? The first or last 993 ever built? Holy OCD Batman! This car better be extra special.

Besides, it's a car, not a Rembrandt. Air cooled are hot, 993's especially. I'm guessing you'd have zero problems selling it tomorrow at or above what you paid with just a carfax and a COA.

Litigious society indeed.

I can see where the OP is coming from, the car was misrepresented. For some people a service history is important (I keep all receipts and they stay with the car so I can relate). If I spent $70,000 on a mint 993 C2S and was told it came with a complete history, I'd be pissed if they didn't all of a sudden surface.

To the OP, I would talk to a couple of appraisers since their opinion will be valued in legal proceedings.

[Dynamik]

Originally Posted by NYNick

Disagree. If it's not a Turbo, you're not talking 6 figures, or even high 5 figures. A carfax would work wonders, a call or visit to your local dealership should bring up a long computerized history as well. A little self homework would go a long way. Of course, a low low mileage car is less important than a middle to high mileage car, but a $2.5-4.5K hit for no paper work? Man Count, you're tough.

But not as tough as Dynamik. You're talking legal ramifications because the seller hasn't provided paperwork or the window sticker? What is it? The first or last 993 ever built? Holy OCD Batman! This car better be extra special.

Besides, it's a car, not a Rembrandt. Air cooled are hot, 993's especially. I'm guessing you'd have zero problems selling it tomorrow at or above what you paid with just a carfax and a COA.

Litigious society indeed.

Ther is a lot more to the story but no need to air it out here. I am not a litigious type of person, just someone who believes in following though with agreements/contracts. I think 15 months is plenty of time for someone to make good on a contract. Any yes, I would have walked on the deal had I known the records (which were summarized verbally and I took the sellers word) would not be provided. Or I would have paid accordingly for the unknowns and undocumented history.

[NYNick]

No harm no foul Dynamik. And to the seller, shame on him for not following through.

[mattC2993]

I have had a similar thing happen although not on a car sale. The seller was going to get me the missing xxxx and never did. In the future I will just discount the sale and tell them I'll give them the extra money as agreed when they show up with the missing stuff (or walk away because they have violated the agreement). I know its hard to do when you have already paid for it. Its hard to put a price on it although it does make a car easier to sell as you already know. I suppose the value is dependent on many things like what the seller is claiming was done ie top end rebuild. If it is just regular maintenance and you have done a PPI then maybe less significant. Significance would also vary with the mileage of the car IMHO.

[littleoldman]

Interesting - predicament.
Investment or not, the paperwork is proof of the cars history.
The sellers decision to not provide it should have been a FLAG that the car has a shady history (possibly). The records show you and subsequent buyers that the service was done as it should have been done... as well as provides insight into ISSUES that may plague the car.

Honestly/ethics/morales are being lost in todays society.

I would "threaten" legal till you get what you were promised.

Two assumptions:
1) the records weren't written on the Bill of Sale
2) when you did your history on the car...you spoke to a dealer that you have a relationship to see if the car was OK. (we all know CarFax is rubbish)

[Dynamik]

Originally Posted by littleoldman

Interesting - predicament.
Investment or not, the paperwork is proof of the cars history.
The sellers decision to not provide it should have been a FLAG that the car has a shady history (possibly). The records show you and subsequent buyers that the service was done as it should have been done... as well as provides insight into ISSUES that may plague the car.

Honestly/ethics/morales are being lost in todays society.

I would "threaten" legal till you get what you were promised.

Two assumptions:
1) the records weren't written on the Bill of Sale
2) when you did your history on the car...you spoke to a dealer that you have a relationship to see if the car was OK. (we all know CarFax is rubbish)

Yes, I am a firm believer in service records and the advertised records were a selling point of the car. I keep scrupulous records on all my vehicles, I even have the dealership stamp the maintenance book on my daily driver Toyota.

Conveyance of the records was written into the sale agreement, by the seller no less. The car had 100k miles on it at the time of purchase, so understanding what's been done and what has not are important to me. I recieved an estimated timeline of some maintenance from the seller, but without the actual records I have already performed maintenance that was unnecessary because I didn't know otherwise until I got in there to do the work. Most of the work on this car was done at independent shops, so the Porsche dealership database has very little info on my car.

The seller claims he still has my records but has been unwilling to take the time to find them in the 15 months since the sale, despite many kind requests. As mentioned, there are several other breaches of the contract that are also an issue, but my focus here is how to best deal with the records. I really am surprised by some peoples lack of integrity.

[johnvan8]

Well it this is going down a legal pathway, then you have to define exactly what the word “records” means. Legally speaking, a 3” stack of receipts is the same as 2 receipts for oil changes at Jiffy Lube, UNLESS there was a written agreement as to EXACTLY how many “records” would be provided. The seller can just print out a Carfax showing a few service records and say “there ya go”. At the end of the day, it will just boil down to who is the judge or arbitrator on the case. If the guy is a car guy, he will side with the buyer; if not, tough luck. In any case, I think it will be extremely difficult to put an actual number that will pass legal scrutiny. How can you PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt what exact amount the same car would have sold for with/without records? These are emotional purchases with values ranging all over the place.
Shame on the seller.

[Dynamik]

Originally Posted by mattC2993

In the future I will just discount the sale and tell them I'll give them the extra money as agreed when they show up with the missing stuff (or walk away because they have violated the agreement).

Yes, this is the lesson learned. Some people do not have the integrity to follow through with agreements/contracts.

[Dynamik]

Originally Posted by johnvan8

Well it this is going down a legal pathway, then you have to define exactly what the word “records” means. Legally speaking, a 3” stack of receipts is the same as 2 receipts for oil changes at Jiffy Lube, UNLESS there was a written agreement as to EXACTLY how many “records” would be provided. The seller can just print out a Carfax showing a few service records and say “there ya go”. At the end of the day, it will just boil down to who is the judge or arbitrator on the case. If the guy is a car guy, he will side with the buyer; if not, tough luck. In any case, I think it will be extremely difficult to put an actual number that will pass legal scrutiny. How can you PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt what exact amount the same car would have sold for with/without records? These are emotional purchases with values ranging all over the place.
Shame on the seller.

Good points. The only record called out by name was the window sticker, which is supposedly located with the rest of the records.

[02m2]

Have been here myself before too. The car is not a $3m Ferrari so a 5-20% prospective decrease in value in this case is not going to be significant to you.
If you want to push it and get the benefit of your bargain then get a litigation lawyer to charge you a couple hundred bucks to write a nasty gram demand letter.
Litigation in this case is not economic unless the state where you purchased has a small claims court. You can file the claim yourself and get the seller to appear before a judge. I assume you have in writing that the records are to be included in the purchase price?

[Dynamik]

Originally Posted by 02m2

Have been here myself before too. The car is not a $3m Ferrari so a 5-20% prospective decrease in value in this case is not going to be significant to you.
If you want to push it and get the benefit of your bargain then get a litigation lawyer to charge you a couple hundred bucks to write a nasty gram demand letter.
Litigation in this case is not economic unless the state where you purchased has a small claims court. You can file the claim yourself and get the seller to appear before a judge. I assume you have in writing that the records are to be included in the purchase price?

Thanks, yes, I have in writing that records were specifically included in the purchase price. The car was purchased in VA and so their statutory code applies. VA is very clear on their "breach of contract" laws and this appears to be a clear violation.

[littleoldman]

Is the seller a Pelican ?
If so shame him.

If not - I feel for you as this is just an annoyance for you.
Good luck.

[Dynamik]

Originally Posted by littleoldman

Is the seller a Pelican ?
If so shame him.

If not - I feel for you as this is just an annoyance for you.
Good luck.

The seller is a self claimed PCA member, enthusiast, entrepreneur, etc... Blah blah blah. Said all the right things to make one think he was a reputable guy. I'm not sure if he is on Pelican or not.

[NYNick]

I think there might be different strokes for different folks here. There are some, like the OP and others, who for them, a record paper trail is paramount and translates into added value (or decreased value in this case).

But there are others who are looking for a good, straight, clean car who's mechanic or PPI gives them the thumbs up for. Records are not that important to them. They're going with their gut, their eyes and the recommendation of their mechanic.

I submit that the Pelican community makes up a fraction of Porsche buyers, albeit the most informed. There's a big market out there, and most buyers haven't even heard of PP. To them, a blow by blow account of a 25 year old car's history isn't critical. They just want the car.

Of course, this doesn't justify the seller's behavior. Just MHO.

[Matt Monson]

100k mi would qualify as low mileage but not really collector miles. The records might dink the value up to 5% or so. Crappy that the seller hasn't followed through but I personally wouldn't sue someone over a few thousand bucks. I would go drive my new used car. Life is too short.

[thamlin000]

Just keep politely emailing the seller for the records but it's not worth legal action.

The records should have been either provided immediately or a discount on the sale price provided until receipt of the records when the remainder price would be paid.