Where is the 964 market these days???

[Type911]

The market is still strong and stronger for the really good cars, which are few and not many these days.

On the leaks, my experience with the pre-92 cars is better than the hype.

No leaks what so ever, other than the Power Steering Drive O-Ring (on Camshaft) which leaks enough oil on the right side of engine near the heat exchanger that it requires immediate attention.

Not many people mention the less obvious but often prevalent items such as:
Climate Control Units that need overhaul, ECU's that have internal faults that exhibit intermittent run ability issues and need overhaul, worn stock suspensions, motor mounts, faded tail-light & light bar lenses, rust bubbles under the windshield seal channel, and worn valve guides/seals.

[manbridge 74]

Originally Posted by nathanbs

I've heard this comment before but I don't get how it's conceivable that Singer is converting enough cars to affect the available supply in the market. What's the production numbers on 964's?

Good question. I'll find out.

[pu911]

Not many 964 coupe sold in US 90-94, for some reason getting accurate production numbers is difficult, very few 92-94's I for one would be very skeptical that Singer has had any impact on pricing. I think it's more simply this is another 911 that the 911 folks initially loathed but after a while folks began to realize that these are terrific cars- prices rose rapidly along with the rest of the 911's. Been a few C4's on BAT trailer recently- stronger prices than I would have expected. See very few C2's listed for sale - almost none of the later model ones that everyone finds so desirable. There has been a lot of price compression between a later model C2 and RSA - makes the RSA one the best deals going in my book right now.
Phil

[onevoice]

Originally Posted by pu911

Not many 964 coupe sold in US 90-94, for some reason getting accurate production numbers is difficult, very few 92-94's I for one would be very skeptical that Singer has had any impact on pricing. I think it's more simply this is another 911 that the 911 folks initially loathed but after a while folks began to realize that these are terrific cars- prices rose rapidly along with the rest of the 911's. Been a few C4's on BAT trailer recently- stronger prices than I would have expected. See very few C2's listed for sale - almost none of the later model ones that everyone finds so desirable. There has been a lot of price compression between a later model C2 and RSA - makes the RSA one the best deals going in my book right now.
Phil

Production numbers are out there, but the accuracy is debatable, although generally close. Total 964 production was 50-60 thousand, but only 13-14 thousand came to the USA. The 964 was expensive for its time, and the currency swings made for some price adjustments during model years. As production neared the end, everyone knew the 993 was coming with many improvements (?), and the 993 was actually introduced at a lower price. The first three years, numbers ramped slowly up, but by 1992, sales fell dramatically. Total coupes into the USA in 1992-1994 barely exceeded 1991's total. The thing that is deceiving, is that 92-94 coupe production was actually over 1000 vehicles less than the production of special models (i.e. Turbos, RSA's, and speedsters). That is why later models are so hard to find. Singer, if anything, has had more of a "halo" effect than the reduction in supply by buying up cars. Another interesting fact, less Targa's were made than turbo's.

Porsches had always been expensive, but during the 964 years things almost got out of control. Many questioned if the company could survive, and they almost didn't.

[littleoldman]

[SalParadise]

You also gotta remember that 964 production years were very dark years for Porsche. I visited the factory in Dec. 1992 and the workers were very sullen and the cars weren't much better. The world economy had tanked and the 964 was more a test-bed for all new regulations (both EPA and DOT) more than anything. I mean really, sealing problems in all the early engines? If you saw what I saw at the factory, you'd understand why.

[Type911]

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[Djs36345]

Originally Posted by nathanbs

I've heard this comment before but I don't get how it's conceivable that Singer is converting enough cars to affect the available supply in the market. What's the production numbers on 964's?

exactly, i heard they build like 3 cars a year.

[onevoice]

Originally Posted by Djs36345

exactly, i heard they build like 3 cars a year.

You heard wrong.

Singer has pictures of almost 60 completed cars on their website. I imagine there are many more completed, and a bunch in process. They would be stupid (and they are they aren't) to not have a couple of years production of 964's stored away.

There is definitely a market for ultra high end cars of all types. Look at the 4x4's ICON builds, think Toyota land cruisers with singer prices. And the hot rod world has many high end builders, like the Ring Brothers.

As to having an impact on the market, I doubt it. Even if they had 200 cars stored away, it's just a drop in the bucket.

[littleoldman]

If you've driven a 964 you know why it's valuable.
Great old car feel with a strong modern build.

Driven against a 993 and it feel smaller and more nimble. The 993 is a bit portly in comparison.

The 964 is just one of the many amazing and valuable cars from Porsche.
Everyone who collects should have one in their garage.

[pnut_lee]

Roughly 6000 USA coupes made. Many of which are C4, a questionable amount are tips. If half are C4 and a couple hundred are tiptronic, that leaves very few C2 coupes with manual transmissions. Assume less than 3000 C2 manual coupes were imported, how many have been totalled over the years or parted out when they were worth way more in parts than whole cars? Or how many were turned into track rats beyond conversion back to street? If that left 1500-2000 cars in existence today and Singer has a couple hundred tucked away than I would say it would have a profound effect on the market. Who knows what the real number is.........would be interesting to know.

[nathanbs]

Originally Posted by pnut_lee

Roughly 6000 USA coupes made. Many of which are C4, a questionable amount are tips. If half are C4 and a couple hundred are tiptronic, that leaves very few C2 coupes with manual transmissions. Assume less than 3000 C2 manual coupes were imported, how many have been totalled over the years or parted out when they were worth way more in parts than whole cars? Or how many were turned into track rats beyond conversion back to street? If that left 1500-2000 cars in existence today and Singer has a couple hundred tucked away than I would say it would have a profound effect on the market. Who knows what the real number is.........would be interesting to know.

There is absolutely no way they have a couple hundred tucked away. I would venture to say the have a dozen tops. They will just raise their prices to cover any additional basis

[87911jon]

Just to post a price point... sold my '89 964 last weekend for $31,500. A really nice car. Kineses magnesium rims as well as stock rims, BB exhaust/headers and very well maintained. 167k, rebuilt around 115k by a known builder. Would not have hesitated to drive it cross country. Picking up a 2 owner, 996 mark1 with 44k (IMS, clutch and other preventive fixes) and will have money left over to paint my e28 M5.

[specialtyoneinc]

Originally Posted by nathanbs

There is absolutely no way they have a couple hundred tucked away. I would venture to say the have a dozen tops. They will just raise their prices to cover any additional basis

Agreed. Some clients provide the car to begin with. Storing 200 cars wouldn't make much financial sense in Southern California anyhow. Also keep in mind Singer has started to produce Targas and AWD vehicles.

[touringteg]

Originally Posted by 87911jon

Just to post a price point... sold my '89 964 last weekend for $31,500. A really nice car. Kineses magnesium rims as well as stock rims, BB exhaust/headers and very well maintained. 167k, rebuilt around 115k by a known builder. Would not have hesitated to drive it cross country. Picking up a 2 owner, 996 mark1 with 44k (IMS, clutch and other preventive fixes) and will have money left over to paint my e28 M5.

That's a reasonable sale price. 89 C4 tends to bring in a smaller sale price but like was posted those that have driven a 964 know how great they are in any configuration.

I really regret passing on a few 964 manual coupe years ago. One was a ROW 90 C2 baltic blue on a blue sport seats. It was a basket case 364km multiple accident leaking everywhere paint brush touch ups car but was dirt cheap 10k USD?! Also there were a few guards red and silver 964 manual C2 coupes for 25k CAD (around 19000 USD).

I didn't like the colors. I'd like to go back and slap myself silly.

[Baezventures]

I have an 89 Carrera C4 which has 59K miles. I have had almost all of the 911's over the years. It's about as nice as they come. I saw somebody say that the C4 brings 15-20% less. That's not really accurate. Look and see if you can find a single 1989 Carrera 4 for sale with low mileage around the country. The last one I saw was on Hemmings at $70K. The 964 market is strong and should continue. These are the most solid and practical of the bunch with the best overall driving experience IMO. The 964 is hands down the best driver I have ever had the chance to get drive. Production of the 89 C4 was only about 1500 cars.

[pnut_lee]

Originally Posted by Baezventures

I have an 89 Carrera C4 which has 59K miles. I have had almost all of the 911's over the years. It's about as nice as they come. I saw somebody say that the C4 brings 15-20% less. That's not really accurate. Look and see if you can find a single 1989 Carrera 4 for sale with low mileage around the country. The last one I saw was on Hemmings at $70K. The 964 market is strong and should continue. These are the most solid and practical of the bunch with the best overall driving experience IMO. The 964 is hands down the best driver I have ever had the chance to get drive. Production of the 89 C4 was only about 1500 cars.

I think you would find that a 1989 C4 with 59k miles and priced the same as a 1990 C2 with the same mileage, color, and condition would sit on the market longer than the C2. I agree with the previous poster that 15-20% difference is what the market has shown between C4 and C2 with all else being equal.

[3literpwr]

In 2013 I passed on 3 964's for 12-16k each. I decided to go G50 and SC for my rally build and cruiser. Crazy to see them rocket after a couple years.