Help to assess value: '85 ROW 3.2 coupe with potential title washing

[TheRev]

I'd love your help to assess fair price on a car I'm considering purchasing. It's got an odd record! Here's the details.

1985 911 Carrera Coupe
ROW European car imported in '85 by Neal Rayburn
104k miles
Clean Texas title
Texas car for last 20yrs
Black exterior, tan interior
Good condition and well-cared for

BUT... I'm attaching pics of the Carfax report which indicates a minor accident in '93 followed by a declaration of salvage in OK two years later. Then it was rebranded with a clean title after that and eventually made it to TX where, again, it received a clean title.

The seller was unaware of any of this. He's had the car 7 years and never seen any sign of an accident or repair work on or under the car.

So, what do you think? If the car passed all inspections for rust and mechanical condition, how much does that salvage incident matter? Where would you guys place the fair price of this car?

Thanks for the help!!

[TheRev]

[silverc4s]

So it was a grey market car to begin with here, correct? That is the controlling factor I would think. On a car that is 30 plus years old the main value consideration on a grey market car is condition. Never going to be collectible, so no valuation in that regard.
Just my opinion, could be otherwise, of course.

[specialtyoneinc]

I would say a low 30k car by your description and Carfax hiccup. It would have to be in rough shape & show signs of accident on the PPI to get anywhere under 30.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by silverc4s

So it was a grey market car to begin with here, correct? That is the controlling factor I would think. On a car that is 30 plus years old the main value consideration on a grey market car is condition. Never going to be collectible, so no valuation in that regard.
Just my opinion, could be otherwise, of course.

That’s an outdated perspective. Grey market means nothing today. Condition today means the most.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

That’s an outdated perspective. Grey market means nothing today. Condition today means the most.

Yep. There is nothing about a grey market car that detracts from its value at all simply based on the method of which it was imported.

I sure wish there was a federal standard for the salvage issue. There should be no state allowed to issue a clean title once a car has been salvaged. How isn’t that law yet? That’s a crooks loophole left wide open.

[pmax]

Accident salvaged in 93 is only 6 years from new ... makes one doubt it was a minor incident.

Who knows ? That's the problem w/salvage titles.

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

That’s an outdated perspective. Grey market means nothing today. Condition today means the most.

^ this.

The salvage title history is a hit of 25% or more on value, in my experience, so I'd put the car closer to $27K if everything else checks out.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by pmax

accident salvaged in 93 is only 6 years from new ... Makes one doubt it was a minor incident.

Who knows ? That's the problem w/salvage titles.

93-85 =|= 6

[pmax]

8
Was thinking 87 for some reason... I wonder why.

[Unobtanium-inc]

The seller might not have known, but now you know, and you can't un-know the salvage history. Take fair market and deduct 30%, and know that if you ever go to sell it, even at a discounted price, the pool of buyers will be smaller.
As long as you know what you're buying with a car with salvage history you'll be fine, it's the people who buy it thinking they are the smartest guy in the world and then when they go to sell it have complete amnesia about the salvage hit to value.
Eyes wide open on this one.

My 993 has old salvage history, but I can't see the title when I'm driving!

---Adam

[TheRev]

This is really helpful data! Thanks everyone! Based on what you're saying plus where Haggerty puts the value ($43k for #3, $28 for #4), it does seem like around 28-29k is as high as I should go. That's based on what appears to be #3 or #4 condition minus 30% for the salvage issue. That puts us right at 30k at #3 and closer to 20k at #4. I doubt he'll go that low, so I'll probably walk. Thanks everyone! BTW, if anyone ever has more of the story on how the carfax above could have happened, I'd love to hear it! About 18 months b/w a "minor" incident with a fence to total salvage in another state of an 8-yr-old car... then right back to clean title in a 3rd state exactly 2 years later. Crazy.

[porschenut]

Who cares about a salvage title issued 25 years ago? As long as the car was repaired properly and is in good condition now, I don't think it should be relevant on a driver-quality car. Get a good PPI and enjoy this thing!

[TheRev]

To my significant surprise, the seller has come back to me after I sent a lengthy message about the salvage and title-washing issues and decided that if I still want it, I can have it at my suggested FMV price of $29k (he did think about it for 3 hours before responding). He also finally sent interior pics which had been sparse in his ad. Here's a few of the best, along with a few others. Assuming the car passes a good PPI, it sure seems hard to pass on a 3.2 coupe in clean condition with 100k miles, especially one with the +24hp and -80lbs the ROW cars got (higher compression ratio, no cat, smaller bumpers). It's hard to imagine I'll ever find a good running 3.2 coupe in the 20's. And worse case scenario, if we had a family emergency and I had to liquidate the car quickly, it's also hard to imagine I couldn't get at least 25k back for it. Hmmmm...

[SCadaddle]

It's hard to imagine I'll ever find a good running 3.2 coupe in the 20's. And worse case scenario, if we had a family emergency and I had to liquidate the car quickly, it's also hard to imagine I couldn't get at least 25k back for it. Hmmmm...

........unless at a minimum, it needs new valve guides and a valve job (which at 100k I think most will tell you the 3.2 would most likely need), and....

.......your PPI doesn't include removing the lower valve covers and checking the dilivar cylinder head studs and a few of them are broken....

.........at which point you will be spending more than 10k to fix things to keep it, and to liquidate it fast with the above issues, 25k might be a stretch.

That being said, and after looking at the photos, shouldn't a ROW 911 have side marker lights on the front fenders?

[TheRev]

Originally Posted by SCadaddle

It's hard to imagine I'll ever find a good running 3.2 coupe in the 20's. And worse case scenario, if we had a family emergency and I had to liquidate the car quickly, it's also hard to imagine I couldn't get at least 25k back for it. Hmmmm...

........unless at a minimum, it needs new valve guides and a valve job (which at 100k I think most will tell you the 3.2 would most likely need), and....

.......your PPI doesn't include removing the lower valve covers and checking the dilivar cylinder head studs and a few of them are broken....

.........at which point you will be spending more than 10k to fix things to keep it, and to liquidate it fast with the above issues, 25k might be a stretch.

That being said, and after looking at the photos, shouldn't a ROW 911 have side marker lights on the front fenders?

Definitely agreed on engine bits. I do expect to have a full PPI on this vehicle. These issues would be true of any 3.2 nearing 100k miles, though. Also, very good eye on the side markers! You're right, so that means fenders have been replaced. Owner has no records going that far back, so there's no way other than visual inspection to check anything else.

[pmax]

Doing a PPI is fine but it's no guarantee. A $$$ expense item can happen anytime even with an A+ PPI.

Your mention of selling in case of a family emergency seems to say, my apologies if I read it wrong, that is not in the budget. It's just the reality of owning these.

[TheRev]

Originally Posted by pmax

Doing a PPI is fine but it's no guarantee. A $$$ expense item can happen anytime even with an A+ PPI.

Your mention of selling in case of a family emergency seems to say, my apologies if I read it wrong, that is not in the budget. It's just the reality of owning these.

Definitely no apologies needed. Actually, we have significant savings. But I'm an engineer by training and so it is my nature to always plan for worst case scenarios. Part of the appeal of this car is that since I had budgeted $35k (pretax) for this purchase, at $29k I have a $6k cushion for unexpected expenses. I think the key is just trying to assess clearly what impact the salvage history will have should I want to sell the car in the future. The comments have been helpful at gauging that.

[specialtyoneinc]

$29k seems like a very fair deal if the accident damage isn't serious and the engine is in good health. You should be pretty safe with you money IMO.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by TheRev

Definitely no apologies needed. Actually, we have significant savings. But I'm an engineer by training and so it is my nature to always plan for worst case scenarios. Part of the appeal of this car is that since I had budgeted $35k (pretax) for this purchase, at $29k I have a $6k cushion for unexpected expenses. I think the key is just trying to assess clearly what impact the salvage history will have should I want to sell the car in the future. The comments have been helpful at gauging that.

Sounds good.

If I were you, I would definitely inspect the bodywork closely, look at all the sheetmetal, under the carpet, inside the fenders etc and see if there has been shoddy repair. The PPI should take care of the drivetrain inspections. Ask if they use a paintmeter.

Good luck with the purchase. I agree the pricing is reasonable, unless there's a red flag above.