Turbo Vs. Longhood / RSR / Backdate Values
 

This is a value question I have wondered about for a while. And after the semi heated debate on the 88 Turbo it raised the thought again. So I thought it would be a good time to ask.

I see nice Turbo cars getting beat down on value. People claim its a $80k car because headers are on it, or a repaint, or whatever. But someone takes a basic 80's 911, does a backdate RSR build with some modifications, a "My Little Pony" color scheme, basket weave leather (ooohhh ahhh basket weave :rolleyes:) and people don't have an issue with $150k, $200k, I've even seen $300k ask for these cars. WTF?

Why do you think people put a low value on a factory Turbo car, in any condition, compared to a RSR or Singer style clone car? Real Singers are excluded from this.








Acknowledgment:
Rawknees. "My Little Pony" color scheme, Pelican Forums. Multiple Threads, April 2016 to Present. :D

Good question. Two different type of buyers/collectors. The majority of the people buying/building these high quality RSR builds are most likely the same people that can afford a collector grade 1976 Turbo and probably have one in their collection.

Here's a guy building 3 of them at the same time on RL.

https://rennlist.com/forums/911-forum/973916-my-rsr-build.html

This was a real nice build that fetched all the money. Well marketed and good timing.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1984-porsche-9111973-rsr-recreation/

Ha ha - hilarious!

And I, too, get a laugh out of the ohhhhs & ahhhhhs from people over leather choice, "pretty" interiors, etc. BUTT each to their own.

Hot rod versus stock buyers. Let’s not forget the 930 was the luxury flagship of the line. I would take a 3.8 on efi with a close ratio gearbox in an iroc look g body over a low powered stock 930 with 4spd and AC every time. A gamroth engine can easily run $50k. I can get a roach 930 for that.

Whoa whoa whoa, be careful what you say. Better take that back before 930XX938498345 comes in here and sees that.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...ys/mgwhore.gif

Here’s the cheap 930 I like. He never sold it and would entertain offers around $45k.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/807717-fs-my-930-935-turbo.html

Gitcha' suuuumm!!!

Just finished adding a little juice (need to replace some hoses that have minor leaks) - lower 90s here now.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1509653004.jpg

It's all about collectability and the buyer. The more collectible a car is the higher premium put on stock trim. Some buyers just love the performance and stock trim has very little meaning to them.

Good question I have thought about also.
930's are well, not very fun stock, but rare stock and a prominent piece of Porsche history, so stock 930's are collectable but not really for drivers and worth good money to own and not drive but brag about the low mileage at shows and such, like Ferrari owners do. So worth big money stock for those guys, the spenders.
Modified 930 are way more fun than stock ones to drive but not as fun to drive as hot rodded NA 911's, this is coming from some one who owns a hot rodded 930.
So if you are after a fun car to drive a 3.6 or 3.8L 911 would be hard to beat, even by a hot rodded 930. Hence the high price for them.
Hot rodding a 930 is just a weird none liner experience, easy to go over the edge and cause huge $$ in damage, power comes on the same way.
NA is much more predictable and frankly tougher with more room for mistakes. Hot rodded NA 911 really beats hot rodded 930's and the prices reflects that. maybe not in peak HP. but almost every where else.

^^^

IckyFicke, you SUCK, bro, bigtime!!! :)

Turbo Powaaa' !!!!!

Butt in all seriousness, "fun" is how one defines it (like you have); personally, I don't know how one matches the fun of the turbo, hammer & anvil rush.

Sorry dude, calling it like I see it. I like my car but I know it is finicky and not for the unwashed masses and NA power is and they will pay more for that than high strung, old tech.,Turbo power!SmileWavy

I am with you there:D

^^^

True about the finicky bit - not the best idea to put a hot ass, ridiculously heat generating turbocharger on an already hot ass, air cooled engine - just asking for mechanical trouble!

Wut, Bosch K-Jetronic is not cutting edge?!?! :D

True on all accounts there rawknee,
My son says my 930 is like that old boxer who still has a great punch but he might hurt himself throwing it.

Ha ha - hilarious and true!

***forum dating***

well said.

Hammer and anvil
 

Butt in all seriousness driving a fatt butted rear slot car is no way near as fun as a light high output H.P. hot rod 911.I used to service a number of RUF 3.4 cars with 374 H.P.The best thing about those cars was the 5 speed gearbox but they were heavy and like a fat girl Rawknees when they walked they jiggled like a soft boiled egg..I drive an 1800 lb.2.8 kitty like Targa that is a little finicky at 374 H.P. and 248 ft. lbs. of Torque.It only runs on VP Green 113 Octane because it is 14.3 to 1 compression.Do the math for power to weight ratio.It has a flat torque curve from 4300 -9100 rpm 0ver 240 ft. lbs.Ti rods & valves help as well but I always have a smile when I stand on it.Not cheap to run but who cares.Oh,it has no roof and only a Lexan windshield.No A/C.It also has a brake upgrade which helps.Other computer just failed or I would show a picture.Go hotrod builds.Ciao Fred

^^^

FaapTabulousFred, I would be honored to go for a ride in your roided-up, girlz car. Can the ride take place in Costa Rica so that I can view the "scenery" while we're zipping along?!?!

https://www.crguytrip.com/wp-content...women-main.jpg

So the NA car is more fun. Is that just on the track or everywhere?

A stock 930 will need less than $10K in modifications to put down 380-400WHP. Granted there is a line where the Turbo becomes a PITA. I read the threads and am trying to stay under that point.
It's has the aggressive Turbo style that is just as good to look at as any RSR. I'm a sucker for the old periscope headlight washers; So cool!
It took very little in suspension work to correct the squishy suspension and it's still comfortable on the street. The brakes are great stock.
The interior is nice. Especially with the super AC unit blowing snow.
Overall I really like the 930 and think its a great all around car. Definitely not a track car.

I'm not knocking the backdate cars as much as having a hard time understanding the price of one. And that the $100-200k price increase is worth it?


I will say the comments have made me decide my 74 build will be a 3.6 or 3.8 NA instead of an over the top Turbo car like Tait's. And the car will probably cost more than the 930 in the end. Maybe in the future when done I'll understand what everyone else already knows.

I paid way over asking price-- sent a cashiers check on Labor Day and I'll be driving it at VIR in a couple weeks. FYI :D. And COTA in February 2018.

It's the cost to build one. That's what I was alluding to with the $50k engine comment. It would take me 30 seconds to write you a quote for a $10-15k gearbox. $20-30k in paint and body work. Another 5 figures in wheels and suspension. You can take a $30-40k running driving car and quickly put six figures into making it your dream hot rod. And a lot of people have been doing that. Jeremey Dixon's 74 that sold on BaT for $70s (don't shoot me if I remember the sales price wrong) is what a nice home built one goes for. The cars trading fro $100-200k cost that much to build.

Here's a good piece about one, of many, shops that have jumped into this pool.
https://jalopnik.com/this-shop-in-wisconsin-makes-the-best-air-cooled-porsch-1739546953

Or how about this car, with a Rothsport engine and GT gearbox, that rolled out at Sema this week? They say they plan to build 25 of them as production pieces!
https://blog.caranddriver.com/gunther-werks-400r-answers-the-question-what-if-porsche-built-a-993-gt3-rs/

Good for you. And for me. Will keep me from doing something stupid when I sell my 86 and have a bank account full of "free" money.

So I think you get it, making power with a turbo is cheaper than making the same power with a NA engine. but it is not as usable and has a more risk so that is why people will pay a premium for those high HP. NA hot rods over a warmed over 930.

I have not seen either of those cars. Both of them are amazing and have the work and tech in them to justify the value like a Singer build.
However there are those that sell for the $120k plus range (one for $225k or 245k this past year on BAT and one built here on Pelican that is asking $300k) that are more of a garage build quality. Those are the cars that I am referring to and don't understand.

I'm repeating myself here, but... Some guy builds a backdated car half in his garage and half at a body shop and it sells for $120-150k. Then a nice 930 comes along and people state it's an $80k car because of...

I do see both sides. Parts cost $$$.
My caliper rebuild at PMB cost more than my first car. I don't like that I wont see that cost returned, if I were selling, just because its a 930.

Got links to further the conversation? I would like to see these cars out of curiousity.

BAT has had quite a few backdated and/or outlaw cars, and they've all done well.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1976-porsche-911-rsr-tribute-date-back-3-6l/


https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1978-porsche-911sc-3-0-2/

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1969-porsche-911-3/

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1969-porsche-911-rsr-tribute/

It's pretty easy. The market/demand is hotter for hotrod backdated (NA) longhoods than driver quality modded 930s. I also don't see people in the market for a hotrod backdate cross shopping with modded 930s. If there were a bunch of people posting "what's my RSR backdate worth" threads in the PP marketplace, I'm sure there would be a huge range of opinions/valuations just like the recent 930 threads.

If you gave a us a specific examples I'm sure we are happy to explain "why" or "why in the hell" did someone pay X amount for that backdate. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...s/beerchug.gif

I’ll look them up over the weekend and post them when I can.
It’s Friday and time to unplug for a while.

Cheers


Sent from my iPhone while Driving

+1
Exactly why I've been saying the 2007 to 2013 BMW M3 are going to be a collector's item someday. They were the only years that a naturally-aspirated V8 with 400 horsepower was installed in the M3 . The European Union is essentially forcing manufacturers to turbocharge all their models. The days are coming when you won't be able to get high horsepower naturally aspirated cars.

Does it count when you add a supercharger to that V8? :) 620 hp

No. Superchargers are for GM, Mopar & Ford only.

Tell that to all of the companies supercharging BMW's, Audi RS and lambo's. Oh I forgot the factory supercharged Mercedes. Funny though

Ok. This car is about $20k more than I think its worth. Extensive rebuild, nothing special done and missed the fit and finish details.
Would I want this over a 930, no way!

I'm sorry to call one guy out but is appears the flyn-hawn cars are the ones that stuck with me. Searching BAT I found the first car that caught me off guard with the prices of these cars.
First the fit and finish is exceptional. It has all the right details to give it the right look, But $200k worth?
Its a Franken car with a custom modified short to long hood, nothing special to the interior (all out of the box stuff), nothing special to the engine (pistons, studs, cams, twin pug and carbs to a stock bottom), suspension is a basic sport rebuild with 930 brakes and sells for $220k. But again, he nailed the "Look".

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1984-porsche-9111973-rsr-recreation/

He did do a 3.8 with injection on the second one, but he built it, and is asking $300k.
The rest of the car is just pretty close to the orange car.
What am I missing with these cars. Is it just what's in style right now and people just have to have one?

The hot rod, back date is hot right now. Buying now is walking into an inflated market. If you asked me. The price of a 930 has come black to reality, again if you asked me.

Look at the historical spread between a NA 911 and a turbo of the same model year. Over the past 4 or 5 years that spread expanded to silly levels. I think its closer to reality now given the production numbers. Just my 2 cents.

These two cars you cited do look like cashing in on the flavor of the month.

But it is important to remember that not all the Porsche faithful like the 930 concept, that of a heavy GT car, overcoming aerodynamic drag from tacked on flares and such with brute power.

Porsches used to be about overcoming the odds with less, providing a nimble, tossable car with enough very reliable power to make a great driving experience that can win. Sort of the rapier vs. the battle axe.
I think 930's are to much like the modern Porsche in this way and people are searching for that old Porsche experience with these NA hot rods.

Ficke, your commentary made me think of one of my favorite "car guy' quotes --->

http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quot...-131-0-040.jpg

Costa Rica Cheerleaders
 

Hey Ronnie,where did you get the picture of my cheerleaders for my soccer team?Do you have spies here in Costa Rica?I do not have my hot rod here.I wanted to bring my 83 930 here but they wanted $125,000 for the taxes to bring it in.Go figure.I pay $122.00 a year for 4 acres on the beach but import duties for a vehicle are 100% of their claimed value.Ciao

Indeed, Mr. Faaptastic, I've been stalking you! I've seen some strange goings-on, too! :eek:

This seems like a real nice hotrod for the money (if it actually sold)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1979-Porsche-911-RSR-/263227355450?hash=item3d4992b13a%3Ag%3AaEwAAOSwuLF ZyCfa&vxp=mtr&nma=true&si=hbVQiOrPxzBwFzqUplW4PyDk DHI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l25 57

I referenced this car below in my original post. The seller hit a home run. Great timing & a high quality build that checked all the boxes for a number of wealthily buyers to bid it up over $200k. Note: I saw the car in (2016) Monterey and it was exceptionally nice. Engine was built by Jae Lee @ Mirage International who has build engines for Singer.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1984-porsche-9111973-rsr-recreation/