Is Singer Responsible For State Of the 964 Market?

[Matt Monson]

I predict when chassis run out in a decade Rob retires with an 8 figure bank account from this project.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by _Remi

"Increase in Singer production" and "popularity of custom 964 builds" are two different things in my opinion. And the reason you are struggling to find a nice manual C2 coupe for less than $50k is because that is the price that the market came up with.

• Nice manual 964 C2 for $50-60k in 2018: not surprising, it's a great car and that price is in line with "equivalent" collector cars
• Nice manual 964 C2 for $20k in 2011: that was completely nuts and we should have jumped on that

I don't think that Singer is the bad guy here, the problem is that too many people happen to have great taste in cars

I tend to agree with you, mostly. Singer has bought up all the poorly maintained turds, tips, and the like. They have decimated the project car market. It doesn't exist anymore for 964s. They were just willing to pay more than hobbyists for such things.

That drove up the cost of entry to a nice car a bit, but I don't think it the driving force. I agree with you on the rest about the independence of the 964 market and other reasons why it has appreciated in recent years.

[specialtyoneinc]

Originally Posted by _Remi

"Increase in Singer production" and "popularity of custom 964 builds" are two different things in my opinion. And the reason you are struggling to find a nice manual C2 coupe for less than $50k is because that is the price that the market came up with.

• Nice manual 964 C2 for $50-60k in 2018: not surprising, it's a great car and that price is in line with "equivalent" collector cars
• Nice manual 964 C2 for $20k in 2011: that was completely nuts and we should have jumped on that

I don't think that Singer is the bad guy here, the problem is that too many people happen to have great taste in cars

I agree. Singer isn't the bad guy at all. I'm currently not in the market for a 964 but think they are the perfect blend of modern & classic in the 911 lineup with the correct mods. Too bad everyone has figured that out. Cheers.

[dennywags]

I would never kick a singer out of my garage, but I would be writing a check to Ruf way before singer.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Guest3416

About 40 cars on that pictures. So all accounted for.
I stand corrected.
I still don't believe Singer will make a dent in the number of 964 produced.

I have said quite a bit on the subject and as noted there weren't many coupes imported. Around 5100. (not including the RSA and special WB cars) Most all sources and charts like the one posted are misleading and incorrect. So many were destroyed long before Singer came along. There was a while when some Pelican members were parting out multiple cars at a time and it went on for a long time. I know of a bunch that have had LS1 transplants and around 15 years ago it was the track car of choice many crashed and burned. The real issue isn't Singer as much as all the backdates, RWB conversions in general. Even my own track car which is now a 3.8RSR WB tribute makes me guilty but still looks like a 964 vs a Singer. Singer is just the one who made backdating these popular and many have followed suit both here and elsewhere.

I appreciate their craftsmanship and engineering. The style is not for me but the price I cannot justify. You will easily be into a singer for over $700k and for half that you can contract the best of the best and have IMO an equally good car.

One of the reasons I like the 964 is it is far safer than the older cars. It adds a lot of weight but air bags ABS and crash protection are important and one thing I don't like is their removing the Air bags and bumpers. All your money isn't going to help you in a collision and these cars are far faster than a stock C2. Might as well use the earlier tubs if your not going to use the safety features and I can only imagine what a CF skinned early tub would weigh in at.

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

I tend to agree with you, mostly. Singer has bought up all the poorly maintained turds, tips, and the like. They have decimated the project car market. It doesn't exist anymore for 964s. They were just willing to pay more than hobbyists for such things.

That drove up the cost of entry to a nice car a bit, but I don't think it the driving force. I agree with you on the rest about the independence of the 964 market and other reasons why it has appreciated in recent years.

I would credit Singer for putting the 964 in the lime light and in turn this has driven up the price of a nice example. People began to realize that thy were a lot of car for the money. No doubt the rapid escalation of value in the 94 turbos and other early air cooled cars got a lot of attention which got people thinking of the base cars. The real issue I find is the current market. The good cars are in peoples garages and rarely change hands. 8 out of every 10 964's I look at I wouldn't pay you a penny for. I have a friend who sold numerous coupes bound to become Singes and IMO these were far from tired poorly maintained turds. LOL. They also were all manual cars I wish that wasn't the case. They were in need of TLC but cars I would place well above what we see in the market today. As you say finding a project car is a thing of the past. When I found my 90 C4 and paid $10k for it my wife thought I was out of my mind. What I would give for a half dozen just like it now.

[wayner]

964s were the next middies.

A 996 is another middy

If that analogy works

[Matt Monson]

They can't be all tips. However, at one point last year I was asked if I could provide any market assistance to get rid of 16 tiptronic takeout gearboxes.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

They can't be all tips. However, at one point last year I was asked if I could provide any market assistance to get rid of 16 tiptronic takeout gearboxes.

I can only imagine.