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HoyaBear
 
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Restarting 930 after 4 years...

Hello forum peeps,

It's been a long time away from this community - always a great place to come learn Well, I'm back and I'm hoping to get my 930 going again after a bit of a hibernation. The 930 came apart for an upgrade (center-mount oil cooler) years ago, and sat as I never had the time to get job finished - until now...

I got all of the bits of 930 back together yesterday, changed the oil/filter, and primed the engine by turning it over with fuel pump relays out/coil plug removed to get the oil circulated a bit. Before I tried starting it, we siphoned out the 2-3 gallons of gas left in the tank and threw in a bottle of techron along with a gallon of fresh 93. We didn't go so far as to drain the fuel tank or pull a fuel line off and suck the bad gas out of the lines. Perhaps that's the issue...

As you'll see in the videos, it'll turn over, but I think the gas in the lines is just too far gone. I don't think it's an ignition problem as when we turned the engine over the coil plug was sparking. We only tried turning it over for a total of 30-45 seconds with the fuel pump on, so I don't think it's flooded, but I'm afraid to keep trying - I don't want to hydro lock the cylinders with bad gas.

The following videos are of the last two times we tried getting it started:

https://youtu.be/NuLjEGLXRKo
https://youtu.be/bMn2VyjZPMY

I'm guessing the next thing to do is find the easiest way to get the bad fuel out of the lines and then try to start it up again. Any input/feedback would be much appreciated!

Thanks - Jon

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'86 930: 3.4 Andial build, Web GT2 Evo cams, Carrillo rods, ported/polished heads, MSD 6530, B&B headers/exh + intercooler, K27HF, 1 bar spring, Tial wastegate, Andial FE, Lindsey Fuchs. Back in black!!!
Past:997S cab; '88 930; '86 951; C5 Vette; 4th Gen Z28; 3rd Gen Trans Am GTA; '71 Z28
Old 09-30-2018, 08:30 PM
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If it were mine (if CIS), I would pull a fuel line at the fuel head or fuel filter and use the fuel pump to pressurize and drain the system. Once drained and refilled with fresh fuel you could pull the injectors and let them spray into baby bottles as you the press down the metering plate on the air flow meter, but may be overkill. Wouldn't hurt to replace the fuel filter. I would have a battery charger hooked up while doing all of this. Check the little screen at the input to the WUR. Attach CIS gauges and observe cold control pressure. If fuel pressure and ignition is ok it should start.
Good Luck!
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Last edited by Bucketlist; 10-01-2018 at 04:35 AM..
Old 10-01-2018, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Euro View Post
If it were mine (if CIS), I would pull a fuel line at the fuel head or fuel filter and use the fuel pump to pressurize and drain the system. Once drained and refilled with fresh fuel you could pull the injectors and let them spray into baby bottles as you the press down the metering plate on the air flow meter, but may be overkill. Wouldn't hurt to replace the fuel filter. I would have a battery charger hooked up while doing all of this. Check the little screen at the input to the WUR. Attach CIS gauges and observe cold control pressure. If fuel pressure and ignition is ok it should start.
Good Luck!
^^^ This. New fuel filter for sure. The graduated baby bottle trick will also very quickly show you if any fuel lines or injectors are blocked or leaking (after system is pressurized, watch each injector and see if it drips).
Old 10-05-2018, 10:20 AM
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HoyaBear
 
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Thanks much Hot Euro and Flightlead404,

I don't plan on taking out the fuel injectors yet, but we'll see as it might need to happen...

I'm hoping to remove the fuel filter and attach a hose from a siphon kit at the factory fitting to drain the old fuel from the lines using the fuel pump. I'll put a new fuel filter in afterwards and hopefully it will crank after some trying.

I'll post pictures once I dig into it.

Thanks again for the feedback!

Jon
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'86 930: 3.4 Andial build, Web GT2 Evo cams, Carrillo rods, ported/polished heads, MSD 6530, B&B headers/exh + intercooler, K27HF, 1 bar spring, Tial wastegate, Andial FE, Lindsey Fuchs. Back in black!!!
Past:997S cab; '88 930; '86 951; C5 Vette; 4th Gen Z28; 3rd Gen Trans Am GTA; '71 Z28
Old 10-10-2018, 10:24 AM
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Maybe a couple more gallons of gas while you’re at it, not sure how well a 1 bottle per 1 gallon will lite. Yes put a charger and let it crank for a bit, she’s pissed at you and wants to keep resting, you gotta work her a bit to relight the fire.
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Old 10-10-2018, 08:27 PM
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Nice looking 930 you have there! Unfortunate that you had to take a 4 yr hiatus but life has a way of doing things like that.
We've done a lot of CIS resurrections in the past few years as old 911 prices went up and folks started dragging them out of the weeds. Yours was inside so huge advantage there. I start by draining and cleaning the tank. Hook up a battery charger and pull the air meter kill switch. With clean fuel in a recirculation can you work your way from the front pump to the rear of the car, circulating clean fuel through the lines until it runs clean for 30 minutes. Once you get to the second pump the filter and accumulator can be included, then do the fuel distributor. The 6 FD lines need to be removed and drained and the injectors removed and flushed. Clean the screen in the WUR inlet. then flush the WUR. After all has been flushed install a new fuel filter and power up the entire system with the injectors removed from the lines (that will get the air out). Install the injectors and the injector lines, test your pressures then crank it up.
The key to all this is to push copious amounts of clean fuel systematically through the system to flush all the deposits that are everywhere without re-contaminating the cleaned sections.
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Old 10-10-2018, 09:00 PM
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Nothing but personal opinion, but I’d def pull the injectors and check the flow. Not only does it give peace of mind regarding afr in each cyl. But it will also help eliminate one of the main culprits - fuel supply.

Super nice car.
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Old 10-14-2018, 04:36 AM
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I've always found this topic interesting, but never fully understood it, since I've never done it.

Once the tank is drained and filled, you are going to try draining the lines from the fuel filter, right?
How is this done? Disconnect fuel filter and just turn the key to "on" but not start (cranking)?
This will flush everything to the filter, and you redirect that bad gas into a bucket.

You are hoping not to have to drain that last 2 feet of lines between filter and injector, right?
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Old 10-14-2018, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
The 6 FD lines need to be removed and drained and the injectors removed and flushed.
RarlyL8, you're the man - thanks again!

I agree with you that I should remove/clean/test the injectors and replace seals. Accessing the right bank of fuel injectors is pretty straight forward, but getting at the left bank of injectors (driver's side) is tough. It's hard to see and get a hand in there without taking more CIS intake components off... Do you have any tips/tricks for getting these out?

I was planning to drain out the remaining old gas by catching it with a hose attached to the fuel head inlet line while using the throttle plate override trick to trigger the fuel pump.

I'm assuming that with fresh gas in a clean tank, running the fuel pump long enough will eventually lead to clean fuel flushing out all the old fuel. Please let me know if I'm making any invalid assumptions, thanks!!!
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'86 930: 3.4 Andial build, Web GT2 Evo cams, Carrillo rods, ported/polished heads, MSD 6530, B&B headers/exh + intercooler, K27HF, 1 bar spring, Tial wastegate, Andial FE, Lindsey Fuchs. Back in black!!!
Past:997S cab; '88 930; '86 951; C5 Vette; 4th Gen Z28; 3rd Gen Trans Am GTA; '71 Z28

Last edited by hoyabear; 05-29-2019 at 03:21 PM..
Old 05-28-2019, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Nice looking 930 you have there! Unfortunate that you had to take a 4 yr hiatus but life has a way of doing things like that.
We've done a lot of CIS resurrections in the past few years as old 911 prices went up and folks started dragging them out of the weeds. Yours was inside so huge advantage there. I start by draining and cleaning the tank. Hook up a battery charger and pull the air meter kill switch. With clean fuel in a recirculation can you work your way from the front pump to the rear of the car, circulating clean fuel through the lines until it runs clean for 30 minutes. Once you get to the second pump the filter and accumulator can be included, then do the fuel distributor. The 6 FD lines need to be removed and drained and the injectors removed and flushed. Clean the screen in the WUR inlet. then flush the WUR. After all has been flushed install a new fuel filter and power up the entire system with the injectors removed from the lines (that will get the air out). Install the injectors and the injector lines, test your pressures then crank it up.
The key to all this is to push copious amounts of clean fuel systematically through the system to flush all the deposits that are everywhere without re-contaminating the cleaned sections.
Super helpful...

How does one prevent issues in the first place? If you know a car will be sitting?

Besides fuel stabilizer? What else?

If you have the WUR and fuel distributor out, how do you "pickle" those?

Most cars that sit for year seem to already have the motor out...
Old 05-29-2019, 05:25 AM
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So I did a bit more research, found out I didn't have some things right, and had a change of plan...

I ended up getting the fuel injectors and injector feed lines out - will be soaking the injectors in carb cleaner and cleaning/blowing out the lines. I'm going to attach rubber hoses to the fuel distributor where the old FI lines connected and push clean fuel through the whole system until all the old fuel is out. Will check flow on the injectors, clean the screen in the WUR inlet, replace the fuel filter a new one and then reassemble.

I'll throw some more pictures up shortly!
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'86 930: 3.4 Andial build, Web GT2 Evo cams, Carrillo rods, ported/polished heads, MSD 6530, B&B headers/exh + intercooler, K27HF, 1 bar spring, Tial wastegate, Andial FE, Lindsey Fuchs. Back in black!!!
Past:997S cab; '88 930; '86 951; C5 Vette; 4th Gen Z28; 3rd Gen Trans Am GTA; '71 Z28
Old 05-29-2019, 02:51 PM
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As promised, here's some pics. For instructional purposes, it's worthy of noting that my car isn't stock. In the following pictures, you'll see the 7th injector mod that had been installed once upon a time to help with AFRs under boost. I don't want to mess with how this was set up, so I'm not going to take it apart...



I was able to get the injectors out without too much of a hassle - took a few hours - and have them soaking in injector cleaner. Took out the FI lines and cleaned them out as well. Ordering new injector seals from Pelican now!
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'86 930: 3.4 Andial build, Web GT2 Evo cams, Carrillo rods, ported/polished heads, MSD 6530, B&B headers/exh + intercooler, K27HF, 1 bar spring, Tial wastegate, Andial FE, Lindsey Fuchs. Back in black!!!
Past:997S cab; '88 930; '86 951; C5 Vette; 4th Gen Z28; 3rd Gen Trans Am GTA; '71 Z28
Old 05-29-2019, 06:14 PM
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... you'll see the 7th injector mod that had been installed once upon a time to help with AFRs under boost. ...
What is a "7th injector modification"?
Thanks.
Old 05-30-2019, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo View Post
What is a "7th injector modification"?
Thanks.
It's not actually an additional injector, more of a WUR-manipulating device.

Andial Fuel Enrichment: https://rennlist.com/forums/911-turbo-930-forum/264941-andial-fuel-inrichment-installation.html
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'86 930: 3.4 Andial build, Web GT2 Evo cams, Carrillo rods, ported/polished heads, MSD 6530, B&B headers/exh + intercooler, K27HF, 1 bar spring, Tial wastegate, Andial FE, Lindsey Fuchs. Back in black!!!
Past:997S cab; '88 930; '86 951; C5 Vette; 4th Gen Z28; 3rd Gen Trans Am GTA; '71 Z28

Last edited by hoyabear; 06-06-2019 at 06:17 PM..
Old 05-30-2019, 11:45 AM
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Update: 6 new fuel injectors are on the way and I've drained out the old fuel.

In the following video, you'll see the setup in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3WkLkA1Ajw At :38 seconds into the video, a strange noise starts getting made. I'm not sure what it is - I'm assuming it's coming from the fuel pump. I'm going to change the fuel filter, put some more new gas w/treatment additive in and do a bit more flushing tomorrow.
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'86 930: 3.4 Andial build, Web GT2 Evo cams, Carrillo rods, ported/polished heads, MSD 6530, B&B headers/exh + intercooler, K27HF, 1 bar spring, Tial wastegate, Andial FE, Lindsey Fuchs. Back in black!!!
Past:997S cab; '88 930; '86 951; C5 Vette; 4th Gen Z28; 3rd Gen Trans Am GTA; '71 Z28
Old 06-06-2019, 06:38 PM
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Heyooo

So far I've drained out all the old fuel, changed the fuel filter, installed new injectors and flushed the lines out - I'm pretty confident the fuel system is working right.

Here's a video of me trying to start it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ27bLlfhHI

The battery was getting low at this point as we'd been trying to get the car started for a while. We did check and saw spark coming from the coil going to the distributor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq4t7DStuLw), but I haven't had a chance to check spark at the plugs yet.

Also of interest is the fuse for the fuel pumps (6th from left in following pic) - shows a little distortion from getting hot. Anyone have any thoughts on what to check next???

Thanks and happy Father's day!!
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'86 930: 3.4 Andial build, Web GT2 Evo cams, Carrillo rods, ported/polished heads, MSD 6530, B&B headers/exh + intercooler, K27HF, 1 bar spring, Tial wastegate, Andial FE, Lindsey Fuchs. Back in black!!!
Past:997S cab; '88 930; '86 951; C5 Vette; 4th Gen Z28; 3rd Gen Trans Am GTA; '71 Z28
Old 06-16-2019, 05:40 AM
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This may not help you at this stage, but for others who have motors not run in many years I suggest setting up a "Pre-Oiler" to give the internals a full shot of oil before that critical first turn......



This one is a Pressurized Paint Pot with a regulator and a line connected to the Oil Pressure Sender location on the block.

(8) quarts of oil is more than enough to pre-oil everything inside.

Also, on the subject above about the Fuse #6 getting hot, please look up the postings here on Pelican about this.

I have just done what Chris at TurboKraft suggested on a totally separate Dual Relay & Fuse kit for the pumps.

It's under $50 if I remember correctly, and very worthwhile.

Len

Old 06-17-2019, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxsterGT View Post


This may not help you at this stage, but for others who have motors not run in many years I suggest setting up a "Pre-Oiler" to give the internals a full shot of oil before that critical first turn......



This one is a Pressurized Paint Pot with a regulator and a line connected to the Oil Pressure Sender location on the block.

(8) quarts of oil is more than enough to pre-oil everything inside.

Also, on the subject above about the Fuse #6 getting hot, please look up the postings here on Pelican about this.

I have just done what Chris at TurboKraft suggested on a totally separate Dual Relay & Fuse kit for the pumps.

It's under $50 if I remember correctly, and very worthwhile.

Len

Thanks Len, I actually ended up getting the car started up with the help of a friend before seeing this. I recently posted in a thread related to the fuel relay issue as well - might be same thread you're referring to. I'm going to put a fresh fuse in, see what happens, and if the issue repeats itself, follow Chris's method as you suggest.

Best,

Jon

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'86 930: 3.4 Andial build, Web GT2 Evo cams, Carrillo rods, ported/polished heads, MSD 6530, B&B headers/exh + intercooler, K27HF, 1 bar spring, Tial wastegate, Andial FE, Lindsey Fuchs. Back in black!!!
Past:997S cab; '88 930; '86 951; C5 Vette; 4th Gen Z28; 3rd Gen Trans Am GTA; '71 Z28
Old 06-20-2019, 06:21 PM
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