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-   -   Turbo 3.2 Carrera Ignition Upgrade Pathway (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/1043018-turbo-3-2-carrera-ignition-upgrade-pathway.html)

Pork Chops 10-19-2019 04:26 PM

Turbo 3.2 Carrera Ignition Upgrade Pathway
 
Hey guys my project is running really well. Unopened 3.2C, 3582R 0,82 AR, VEMS, was running 7lb of boost and now running 10lb. Gained 50Nm and 10hp ATWs which is lower than expectation as the spark was getting blown out by the extra boost. So I need to upgrade the ignition system to get what I'm entitled to with 10lb of boost. So my question is what does an upgrade pathway look like?

Current ignition system is standard and the plugs are platinum gapped to about 0.6mm / 24 thou. Chris at Turbokraft has suggested NGK BKR8EIX which my tuner agrees with and has in stock. Easy first step which I'll do next week.

So what is the next step after that? Lowest investment, best result. CDI upgrade? If so what's best these days? MSD? Try that and see how I go or possibly upgrade the coil too?

On one hand I don't want to throw money at the problem and replace everything but on the other, I want the next time this car goes to the dyno to be the last.

Appreciate hearing peoples'perspectives.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1571527297.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1571527368.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1571527456.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1571527544.jpg

nocarrier 10-20-2019 10:39 AM

How many ignition outputs does vems have? How much current can they handle?

spuggy 10-21-2019 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pork Chops (Post 10629014)
CDI upgrade? If so what's best these days?

My wrench loves the Classic Retrofit CDI for early motors.


If the VEMS can trigger it (be very surprised if it can't), you coil-on-plug is better. Delivers the energy right where it is supposed to go, the ECU only triggers it on/off - kind of like a relay for the headlights. Distributor? Pah.... :)

One of the design criteria Porsche provided to Beru when they were co-developing the Cayenne Turbo COP units was:
Quote:

at least 25 % higher spark energy and spark duration compared to the current sports-car ignition coil

GJF 10-21-2019 10:24 AM

Stay away from platinum plugs altogether. I’ve used the NGK BKR8EIX with great success at .024. Currently running these:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F15 1819864195
A little better but not by much. More $$$ but better materials. These are also the same heat range as the NGK’s, Either or you can’t go wrong. At your power level just a plug change gapped correctly should be all you need. Not discrediting your setup at all, but I’ve seen a lot more power output with stock ECU cars and no spark adder.

Tippy 10-21-2019 11:20 AM

I suspect the low power output is due to the turbo.

These modern turbos are really only efficient at high boost pressures.

Try an old school 60-1 and I bet you'd pick up some power as the old school turbos like lower boost levels but put out more CFM.

GJF 10-21-2019 11:33 AM

It’s definitely laggy. What turbo is it? 58mm compressor but what’s the turbine and A/R housing?

Tippy 10-21-2019 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GJF (Post 10630906)
Itís definitely laggy. What turbo is it? 58mm compressor but whatís the turbine and A/R housing?

He said it's a GT35R with an 0.82A/R. Those are 61.4mm from memory?

That 0.82A/R should light quick! My friend had a 1.06A/R factory housing and it lit really nicely.

GJF 10-21-2019 01:25 PM

Ahaa I didnt see the 3582. I suspect poor timing map. That thing should light much quicker than that. Iíd stay with the 35 over a 60-1

GJF 10-21-2019 01:33 PM

With the VEMS you can run up to 8 coils. You should be able to ditch the dizzy and run packs or COPís. Whatís the timing map look like?

flightlead404 10-22-2019 08:57 AM

It may be overkill, but I'm using a microsquirt to control ignition on my frankencis installation along with the factory bosch pickup and a 60-2 flywheel and Denso COPs. The only thing I'd do differently is a 30-1 flywheel next time to avoid oversaturation of the VR input. 30-1 is adequate positioning for our requirements.

Pork Chops 04-18-2020 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GJF (Post 10631054)
With the VEMS you can run up to 8 coils. You should be able to ditch the dizzy and run packs or COPís. Whatís the timing map look like?

Sorry just getting back to this thread. Re lag, yes itís much laggier than youíd expect to drive. Tuner flagged it straight away and said he wasnít sure why (and trust me heís a good tuner so please letís not go down that pathway). None the less Iíll see if I can get a copy of the ignition map and post it here. Unfortunately the car is not near me so Iíll see if the tuner can send me a copy.

Getting back to the ignition side of things, Iím not moving to COP etc etc. Iím sticking with the existing ignition architecture (it was good enough for the RUF CTR) but need to make sure it all works properly or is upgraded. Could the suggestions be confined to this pathway?

Just one other piece of info itís running stock heat exchangers and a J pipe. That probably robbing it of some power and response.

Many thanks guys.

RagingBull 04-18-2020 06:35 PM

From my own understanding, the stock 3.2 ignition system can easily handle your boost levels. How are your AFRs? You should be running a Rising-Rate / Dual-Rate FPR to deliver more fuel during boost. At that boost level, the stock fuel pump should still be alright. The ECU map would only then be something to look at to tune everything.

clutch-monkey 04-18-2020 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pork Chops (Post 10830010)
Just one other piece of info it’s running stock heat exchangers and a J pipe. That probably robbing it of some power and response.

Many thanks guys.

could be some lag there for sure- see how it goes with your new plugs etc though.
for example my GTR has less lag purely from changing from the powerFC to a modern adaptronic- really able to tweak the map down low and make it nicer.

Pork Chops 04-21-2020 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RagingBull (Post 10830098)
From my own understanding, the stock 3.2 ignition system can easily handle your boost levels. How are your AFRs? You should be running a Rising-Rate / Dual-Rate FPR to deliver more fuel during boost. At that boost level, the stock fuel pump should still be alright. The ECU map would only then be something to look at to tune everything.

Hi, yes that what I've been told re the standard ignition so I may have it checked over to see it it's working optimally. The fuel pump is upgraded to a Bosch 044 and I recall I don't need a RR FPR as I'm running a programmable ECU (VEMS) with upgraded injectors. AFRs run from 13.5 to 11.5 and it's only hitting full boost at 3,750rpm - see attached info on the dyno charts. I'm running a 4 port boost controller the target boost is 10lb but with a 7lb gate spring.

I've also attached some screen shots from the ECU with the ignition, fuel and lambda maps.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1587523750.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1587523750.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1587523750.jpg

Fuel

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1587523750.jpg

Ignition

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1587523750.jpg

Lambda

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1587523750.jpg

Pork Chops 04-21-2020 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GJF (Post 10631054)
With the VEMS you can run up to 8 coils. You should be able to ditch the dizzy and run packs or COPís. Whatís the timing map look like?

Timing map is in the previous post I've just added. Thanks.

Pork Chops 04-21-2020 08:54 PM

To confirm I've changed the plugs to NGK BKR8EIX since the original post. It's not gone back to the dyno and from the limited amount of time I've I've driven it since I can't sense any difference.

Raceboy 04-21-2020 10:19 PM

You can add dwell to ignition coil, either with across the whole rpm/MAP range or with just MAP multiplier (meaning it will increase dwell with boost).

Pork Chops 04-22-2020 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raceboy (Post 10833848)
You can add dwell to ignition coil, either with across the whole rpm/MAP range or with just MAP multiplier (meaning it will increase dwell with boost).

Hi Peep, please explain dwell to a novice.

Raceboy 04-22-2020 11:39 AM

Dwell = coil charge time. You can adjust it in Base Setup -> Ignition Settings.

RagingBull 04-22-2020 04:28 PM

I believe the stock headers / heat exchangers, J-pipe, and 0.82 A/R housing will all contribute to the lag you are seeing (and the response / feel).

I do not know how the system can adjust fuel pressure with boost as it currently stands. You have the higher power pump and the large injectors but the fuel pressure itself is fixed throughout the range. Typically I understand turbo 3.2 applications using a BEGI RRFPR or similar. That being said, your AFRs would show if this was truly a problem. I would recommend a chat with Turbokraft or Protomotive to shed some light unless our knowledgeable fellow members can chime in.


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