Turbo 3.2 Carrera Ignition Upgrade Pathway

[Pork Chops]

Hey guys my project is running really well. Unopened 3.2C, 3582R 0,82 AR, VEMS, was running 7lb of boost and now running 10lb. Gained 50Nm and 10hp ATWs which is lower than expectation as the spark was getting blown out by the extra boost. So I need to upgrade the ignition system to get what I'm entitled to with 10lb of boost. So my question is what does an upgrade pathway look like?

Current ignition system is standard and the plugs are platinum gapped to about 0.6mm / 24 thou. Chris at Turbokraft has suggested NGK BKR8EIX which my tuner agrees with and has in stock. Easy first step which I'll do next week.

So what is the next step after that? Lowest investment, best result. CDI upgrade? If so what's best these days? MSD? Try that and see how I go or possibly upgrade the coil too?

On one hand I don't want to throw money at the problem and replace everything but on the other, I want the next time this car goes to the dyno to be the last.

Appreciate hearing peoples'perspectives.

[nocarrier]

How many ignition outputs does vems have? How much current can they handle?

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by Pork Chops

CDI upgrade? If so what's best these days?

My wrench loves the Classic Retrofit CDI for early motors.


If the VEMS can trigger it (be very surprised if it can't), you coil-on-plug is better. Delivers the energy right where it is supposed to go, the ECU only triggers it on/off - kind of like a relay for the headlights. Distributor? Pah....

One of the design criteria Porsche provided to Beru when they were co-developing the Cayenne Turbo COP units was:

at least 25 % higher spark energy and spark duration compared to the current sports-car ignition coil

[GJF]

Stay away from platinum plugs altogether. I’ve used the NGK BKR8EIX with great success at .024. Currently running these:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F15 1819864195
A little better but not by much. More $$$ but better materials. These are also the same heat range as the NGK’s, Either or you can’t go wrong. At your power level just a plug change gapped correctly should be all you need. Not discrediting your setup at all, but I’ve seen a lot more power output with stock ECU cars and no spark adder.

[Tippy]

I suspect the low power output is due to the turbo.

These modern turbos are really only efficient at high boost pressures.

Try an old school 60-1 and I bet you'd pick up some power as the old school turbos like lower boost levels but put out more CFM.

[GJF]

It’s definitely laggy. What turbo is it? 58mm compressor but what’s the turbine and A/R housing?

[Tippy]

Originally Posted by GJF

It’s definitely laggy. What turbo is it? 58mm compressor but what’s the turbine and A/R housing?

He said it's a GT35R with an 0.82A/R. Those are 61.4mm from memory?

That 0.82A/R should light quick! My friend had a 1.06A/R factory housing and it lit really nicely.

[GJF]

Ahaa I didnt see the 3582. I suspect poor timing map. That thing should light much quicker than that. I’d stay with the 35 over a 60-1

[GJF]

With the VEMS you can run up to 8 coils. You should be able to ditch the dizzy and run packs or COP’s. What’s the timing map look like?

[flightlead404]

It may be overkill, but I'm using a microsquirt to control ignition on my frankencis installation along with the factory bosch pickup and a 60-2 flywheel and Denso COPs. The only thing I'd do differently is a 30-1 flywheel next time to avoid oversaturation of the VR input. 30-1 is adequate positioning for our requirements.

[Pork Chops]

Originally Posted by GJF

With the VEMS you can run up to 8 coils. You should be able to ditch the dizzy and run packs or COP’s. What’s the timing map look like?

Sorry just getting back to this thread. Re lag, yes it’s much laggier than you’d expect to drive. Tuner flagged it straight away and said he wasn’t sure why (and trust me he’s a good tuner so please let’s not go down that pathway). None the less I’ll see if I can get a copy of the ignition map and post it here. Unfortunately the car is not near me so I’ll see if the tuner can send me a copy.

Getting back to the ignition side of things, I’m not moving to COP etc etc. I’m sticking with the existing ignition architecture (it was good enough for the RUF CTR) but need to make sure it all works properly or is upgraded. Could the suggestions be confined to this pathway?

Just one other piece of info it’s running stock heat exchangers and a J pipe. That probably robbing it of some power and response.

Many thanks guys.

[RagingBull]

From my own understanding, the stock 3.2 ignition system can easily handle your boost levels. How are your AFRs? You should be running a Rising-Rate / Dual-Rate FPR to deliver more fuel during boost. At that boost level, the stock fuel pump should still be alright. The ECU map would only then be something to look at to tune everything.

[clutch-monkey]

Originally Posted by Pork Chops

Just one other piece of info it’s running stock heat exchangers and a J pipe. That probably robbing it of some power and response.

Many thanks guys.

could be some lag there for sure- see how it goes with your new plugs etc though.
for example my GTR has less lag purely from changing from the powerFC to a modern adaptronic- really able to tweak the map down low and make it nicer.

[Pork Chops]

Originally Posted by RagingBull

From my own understanding, the stock 3.2 ignition system can easily handle your boost levels. How are your AFRs? You should be running a Rising-Rate / Dual-Rate FPR to deliver more fuel during boost. At that boost level, the stock fuel pump should still be alright. The ECU map would only then be something to look at to tune everything.

Hi, yes that what I've been told re the standard ignition so I may have it checked over to see it it's working optimally. The fuel pump is upgraded to a Bosch 044 and I recall I don't need a RR FPR as I'm running a programmable ECU (VEMS) with upgraded injectors. AFRs run from 13.5 to 11.5 and it's only hitting full boost at 3,750rpm - see attached info on the dyno charts. I'm running a 4 port boost controller the target boost is 10lb but with a 7lb gate spring.

I've also attached some screen shots from the ECU with the ignition, fuel and lambda maps.





Fuel



Ignition



Lambda

[Pork Chops]

Originally Posted by GJF

With the VEMS you can run up to 8 coils. You should be able to ditch the dizzy and run packs or COP’s. What’s the timing map look like?

Timing map is in the previous post I've just added. Thanks.

[Pork Chops]

To confirm I've changed the plugs to NGK BKR8EIX since the original post. It's not gone back to the dyno and from the limited amount of time I've I've driven it since I can't sense any difference.

[Raceboy]

You can add dwell to ignition coil, either with across the whole rpm/MAP range or with just MAP multiplier (meaning it will increase dwell with boost).

[Pork Chops]

Originally Posted by Raceboy

You can add dwell to ignition coil, either with across the whole rpm/MAP range or with just MAP multiplier (meaning it will increase dwell with boost).

Hi Peep, please explain dwell to a novice.

[Raceboy]

Dwell = coil charge time. You can adjust it in Base Setup -> Ignition Settings.

[RagingBull]

I believe the stock headers / heat exchangers, J-pipe, and 0.82 A/R housing will all contribute to the lag you are seeing (and the response / feel).

I do not know how the system can adjust fuel pressure with boost as it currently stands. You have the higher power pump and the large injectors but the fuel pressure itself is fixed throughout the range. Typically I understand turbo 3.2 applications using a BEGI RRFPR or similar. That being said, your AFRs would show if this was truly a problem. I would recommend a chat with Turbokraft or Protomotive to shed some light unless our knowledgeable fellow members can chime in.