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Turbo 3.2 Carrera Ignition Upgrade Pathway
Hey guys my project is running really well. Unopened 3.2C, 3582R 0,82 AR, VEMS, was running 7lb of boost and now running 10lb. Gained 50Nm and 10hp ATWs which is lower than expectation as the spark was getting blown out by the extra boost. So I need to upgrade the ignition system to get what I'm entitled to with 10lb of boost. So my question is what does an upgrade pathway look like?
Current ignition system is standard and the plugs are platinum gapped to about 0.6mm / 24 thou. Chris at Turbokraft has suggested NGK BKR8EIX which my tuner agrees with and has in stock. Easy first step which I'll do next week. So what is the next step after that? Lowest investment, best result. CDI upgrade? If so what's best these days? MSD? Try that and see how I go or possibly upgrade the coil too? On one hand I don't want to throw money at the problem and replace everything but on the other, I want the next time this car goes to the dyno to be the last. Appreciate hearing peoples'perspectives. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,056
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How many ignition outputs does vems have? How much current can they handle?
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Glorious Pac NW
Posts: 3,535
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My wrench loves the Classic Retrofit CDI for early motors.
If the VEMS can trigger it (be very surprised if it can't), you coil-on-plug is better. Delivers the energy right where it is supposed to go, the ECU only triggers it on/off - kind of like a relay for the headlights. Distributor? Pah.... ![]() One of the design criteria Porsche provided to Beru when they were co-developing the Cayenne Turbo COP units was: Quote:
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'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things. |
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Slantnose from HELL
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 860
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Stay away from platinum plugs altogether. I’ve used the NGK BKR8EIX with great success at .024. Currently running these:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F15 1819864195 A little better but not by much. More $$$ but better materials. These are also the same heat range as the NGK’s, Either or you can’t go wrong. At your power level just a plug change gapped correctly should be all you need. Not discrediting your setup at all, but I’ve seen a lot more power output with stock ECU cars and no spark adder.
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It changes from time to time..... Last edited by GJF; 10-21-2019 at 10:40 AM.. |
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Chain fence eating turbo
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 8,844
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I suspect the low power output is due to the turbo.
These modern turbos are really only efficient at high boost pressures. Try an old school 60-1 and I bet you'd pick up some power as the old school turbos like lower boost levels but put out more CFM.
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel |
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Slantnose from HELL
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 860
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It’s definitely laggy. What turbo is it? 58mm compressor but what’s the turbine and A/R housing?
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It changes from time to time..... |
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Chain fence eating turbo
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 8,844
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Quote:
That 0.82A/R should light quick! My friend had a 1.06A/R factory housing and it lit really nicely.
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel |
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Slantnose from HELL
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 860
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Ahaa I didnt see the 3582. I suspect poor timing map. That thing should light much quicker than that. I’d stay with the 35 over a 60-1
Last edited by GJF; 10-21-2019 at 01:35 PM.. |
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Slantnose from HELL
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 860
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With the VEMS you can run up to 8 coils. You should be able to ditch the dizzy and run packs or COP’s. What’s the timing map look like?
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It may be overkill, but I'm using a microsquirt to control ignition on my frankencis installation along with the factory bosch pickup and a 60-2 flywheel and Denso COPs. The only thing I'd do differently is a 30-1 flywheel next time to avoid oversaturation of the VR input. 30-1 is adequate positioning for our requirements.
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'86 no-sunroof 930 coupe: Emissions removed, FrankenCIS controlling eWUR, lambda, COP ignition. Tial f46P 1.0 bar spring, SC cams, K-27/29, lightweight clutch, TK Longneck intercooler, RarlyL8 headers and dual-outlet hooligan '14 Jaguar XK-R: Bullet proof windscreen, rotating number plates (valid all European countries), martini mixer, whatever you do don't press this red button! |
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Quote:
Getting back to the ignition side of things, I’m not moving to COP etc etc. I’m sticking with the existing ignition architecture (it was good enough for the RUF CTR) but need to make sure it all works properly or is upgraded. Could the suggestions be confined to this pathway? Just one other piece of info it’s running stock heat exchangers and a J pipe. That probably robbing it of some power and response. Many thanks guys. |
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Instagram:@blacklistracer
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 105
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From my own understanding, the stock 3.2 ignition system can easily handle your boost levels. How are your AFRs? You should be running a Rising-Rate / Dual-Rate FPR to deliver more fuel during boost. At that boost level, the stock fuel pump should still be alright. The ECU map would only then be something to look at to tune everything.
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Bolt-on Turbocharged 1987 911 3.2 Carrera G50 - Stock Engine (10.3:1 P&Cs), GT3582R Turbo at 0.5bar, Protomotive Intercooler, Protomotive Headers, Protomotive Fuel Pressure Regulator, Titanium Exhaust & Resonator, Titanium TiAL F46 WG Pipe, Titanium Air Filter Plumbing, RUF Speedlines, RUF Strut Brace, RUF Steering Wheel, KEP Turbo Clutch, Koni Adjustable Shocks, 23/29mm TBs, WEVO G50 Shifter, 996 Turbo Brakes. |
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 917
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Quote:
for example my GTR has less lag purely from changing from the powerFC to a modern adaptronic- really able to tweak the map down low and make it nicer. |
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Quote:
I've also attached some screen shots from the ECU with the ignition, fuel and lambda maps. ![]() ![]() ![]() Fuel ![]() Ignition ![]() Lambda ![]() Last edited by Pork Chops; 04-21-2020 at 07:53 PM.. |
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To confirm I've changed the plugs to NGK BKR8EIX since the original post. It's not gone back to the dyno and from the limited amount of time I've I've driven it since I can't sense any difference.
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Turbonut
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You can add dwell to ignition coil, either with across the whole rpm/MAP range or with just MAP multiplier (meaning it will increase dwell with boost).
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'83 924 (2.6 16v Turbo, 530hp),'67 911 hot-rod /2.4S, '78 924 Carrera GT project (2.0 turbo 340 hp), '84 928 S 4.7 Euro (VEMS PnP, 332 HP), '90 944 S2 Cabriolet http://www.facebook.com/vemsporsche |
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Turbonut
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Dwell = coil charge time. You can adjust it in Base Setup -> Ignition Settings.
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'83 924 (2.6 16v Turbo, 530hp),'67 911 hot-rod /2.4S, '78 924 Carrera GT project (2.0 turbo 340 hp), '84 928 S 4.7 Euro (VEMS PnP, 332 HP), '90 944 S2 Cabriolet http://www.facebook.com/vemsporsche |
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Instagram:@blacklistracer
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 105
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I believe the stock headers / heat exchangers, J-pipe, and 0.82 A/R housing will all contribute to the lag you are seeing (and the response / feel).
I do not know how the system can adjust fuel pressure with boost as it currently stands. You have the higher power pump and the large injectors but the fuel pressure itself is fixed throughout the range. Typically I understand turbo 3.2 applications using a BEGI RRFPR or similar. That being said, your AFRs would show if this was truly a problem. I would recommend a chat with Turbokraft or Protomotive to shed some light unless our knowledgeable fellow members can chime in.
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Bolt-on Turbocharged 1987 911 3.2 Carrera G50 - Stock Engine (10.3:1 P&Cs), GT3582R Turbo at 0.5bar, Protomotive Intercooler, Protomotive Headers, Protomotive Fuel Pressure Regulator, Titanium Exhaust & Resonator, Titanium TiAL F46 WG Pipe, Titanium Air Filter Plumbing, RUF Speedlines, RUF Strut Brace, RUF Steering Wheel, KEP Turbo Clutch, Koni Adjustable Shocks, 23/29mm TBs, WEVO G50 Shifter, 996 Turbo Brakes. |
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