converting to EFI help
 

I am about to start putting the engine back to together in my 930.
I have twin plugged the heads and bought an MS3pro evo.
I am NOT going full EFI just yet.
plan is to break the engine in with old ign and CIS then get the ignition portion working to run the twin plugs from the MS3 and then later go full EFI.


my question now is mainly about knock sensors or any other EFI parts that would be easier to install now while the engine is apart.

what is the best knock sensor to use.

If you would like to get the crank position signal and the sync signal off of the flywheel, then now is a good time to mount the 60-2 flywheel with the sync pin.

Also, mount the WRO2 in the exhaust now might be nice.

You can check out my spreadsheet of all the components I used for my conversion.
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=89033EA9FB01D9A0!911&ithint=file%2 cxlsx&authkey=!AF3xZ4TG0wXhxq0

got the bung in for the O2 already.

flywheel? is that better than using pulley trigger off the front or do I need both.
where to get the parts.
would I need a cam position sensor too.

how are people mounting the knock sensor.
what about CHT sensor.

would like to get these things in now if I can.


been reading lots of post on EFI but still confused as there are so many random posts and a lot is old info.

You need either a cam or crank trigger. You will only need a cam sensor if you want to run sequential fueling/ignition. It is recommended that you do. There are several ways people have mounted the knock sensor. I personally mounted mine on an empty thread next to the oil breather cover and its worked great. Others have mounted under the engine shroud. CHT isnt really necessary, but the easiest way is to use turbokraft's kit that slides into the cooling fins. I bought one a couple years ago, but havent gotten around to installing it.

Smart move to break in with existing setup if running new cams

Best to leave as much fins open in area as possible, CHT sensor can be placed elsewhere, or use an EGT sensor instead, best is 6 EGT sensors (one per exhaust) and sequential fueling/ign, then you take full adantage of EFI. As mentioned by others above, smart to consider cam sensor already now for sequential setup.


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Don't think you'll find any big gains with sequential, sure you can dial in each cylinder if you have the capabilities to read the egt of each one but I doubt its going to make anymore power.

Seqential fueling and ignition is mostly for tuning safe on a shared AFR not leaving one or more cylinders lean when reading what appears to be safe AFR's and shared temperatures

on the EFI list is also e-throttle with the advantages it offers on idle, shift control and not to forget"rolling anti-lag" feature on a long geared 930 e.g. in 2, 3rd or 4th gear

I milled a couple of flanges in alu 6082 to match up against the Carrera manifold and fit a standard Bosch 70mm drive by wire throttle. Carrera manifold has 66,5mm inlet hole, so the flange tapper from 70mm on the throttle to 66,5mm on the manifold and has a slot for the read OEM carrera throttle rubber o-ring to re-use on the back-side. I have a couple of spare Bosch 70mm e-throttle bodies as well if interested in a kit

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yT...=w1219-h913-no

It's hard to get a good idle on large injectors with batch fire. Mine wouldnt idle smoothly over 11.5:1 on batch fire with the 80lb injectors. Once I switched to sequential I can idle at 14.5 with no issues. Another thing to consider is with sequential you can use the individual cylinder knock correction. Rather than retarding all the cylinders it will only pull timing on the cylinder that knocks. It really makes no sense to not add a cam sensor and utilize all the benefits of sequential fuel and ignition.

Clewett Engineering is an excellent source (and resource) for EFI conversion components, including Clewett built twin plug coil on/near plug wires.

I would love more info on this. What pedal are you using(or going to use)? I only have microsquirt. Assuming an upgrade to MS3 would be in order to use this technology?

^^^ +1

Call Chris at TurboKraft, he can provide the CHT, Cam and Crank Position sensors and flywheel.

What injectors are you planning on running?

Did you get a wiring harness with the MS3?

Here's a good ref for the MS3 install: https://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/936814-ms3-pro-conversion-11.html

Good Luck

Almost any 6 pin e-pedal mechanism will do from any car manufacture and should hook up to the aftermarket ECU. Just pick one that suits your wallet, and read the wiring diagram ;) Should not cost more than 50-75$ for a nice used or new model

Avoid the crazy-bling-bling-billet "porche money" shop factor and make it your self. Any parts that touches a porsche and can be polished seem to get the porsche-money syndrome these days. E-pedal is a normal part in all newer cars.

I havent looked for the specific pedal yet. I will tig-weld what ever bracket needed. I will properly find one on ebay or all-most new from a wracked car and make the bracket to fit. Should not be much time consuming or expensive to do the pedal. If you cannot weld your self, just go and pay the nearest good welder in your neighborhood, just like most shop owners do.

New DBW pedal example:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-BMW-X3-Hella-Accelerator-Pedal-Sensor-010946231-35426853175/153148153196?epid=14025294385&hash=item23a8575d6c: g:Hj4AAOSwlddceAye

Regarding upgrading EFI. Yes, you would properly need an upgrade if staying in the MS family. I have tuned with many EFI units, but never MS for several reasons. I know MS had a thing against e-throttle in the past (safety). The later models should have it today. Look up the spec list on the MS model you are after.

Another good option is VEMS sold by Raceboy here on the forum. He also build you the harness, and can support with the parts. He knows his stuff. He can set you up with a solid plug & play solution for normal none-porsche money, and ensure direct pro efi support

The carrera e-throttle kit pictured will be paired to a 930 on maxxecu "Race" model for single e-throttle, another 930 is planned for maxxecu Pro model on dual throttle. Personally I like the tablet app and customized digital touch pad input switch strategy. It allows for all stock appearance in the 930 when removing the tablet.

The pictured bosch e-throttle has 3' hose connection, the 70mm is internal Ø

Rolling antilack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWyc5WVTUDc

Megasquirt forum member "petski3" has developed and is selling a drive by wire controller that interfaces with MS3. It has dual cpu's for safety.

Megasquirt Support Forum (MSEXTRA) • The DriveByWire Controller (DBWX2) (View topic)

Has the electronic control proved to be reliable so far? In the event that the PWM driver fails does it fail open? I guess if the wires short high it is full throttle, correct?

Can it eliminate the IAC motor with mega squirt, or did you still need one?

Anything running 72lb and over injectors will benefit from sequential setup. It is the idle quality that suffers from firing all the injectors in batch configuration. With smaller injectors it is easy because you don't have to trim down the injector time to the point where it isn't able to control the fuel. But when running large injectors you can't trim the injector low enough to actually open and close to properly meter the fuel. By running in sequential configuration you fire each injector only when each cylinder needs it. Rather than batch, which fires multiple times to all the cylinders regardless if it's needed or not.

Yes, this. Sequential is also easier on the plugs because it injects on a closed intake most of the time, which makes for better throttle response. A lot of bang for the buck.

Not disagreeing with the benefits as I’m running it myself but depending on your hp goals/injector size as GJF mentions above batch fire can work extremely well with good injectors when set up correctly. If you do go the sequential route add the sensors to take full advantage of it.

I didn’t bother with a knock sensor since I figured a loud 930 engine would interfere with it but since I didn’t install one I don’t know if that’s true or not. I did go sequential since I’m running big injectors and wanted a good idle. I put a screw in magnet on the oil pump spacer that replaced the air pump gear and a sensor on the housing.

Maybe we should have thread just for e-throttle if there’s not one already. I’d like to go with it because I can’t get my 930 to Carrera TB linkage to be as smooth as I’d like. There’s still a little sticking right off idle and I’ve tried a few different bell crank ratios.

Check out the link that dap930 posted. Looks pretty promising

Crank sensors, especially if you are going to mount them on the flywheel.
Knock sensors.
Throttle position switches if necessary.
Vacuum and manifold ports as necessary.
Various temperature sensors (depends on which EFI you're going with).

definitely want to do sequential.
not sure of injector size but figured around 80#.
ports have been opened up to 38mm and I have an SC cam and twin plug.
7200 turbo that has been modded for reduced lag.
B&B type header
RUF IC

where are you mounting the MAP sensor. I pulled out the "Y" pipe but have not plugged the hole yet, also have a hole in the back side of the manifold I have to plug that is threaded.

what are the benefits of the different RPM sensors. pulley on the front or flywheel.

so I need
cam sensor
flywheel or pulley sensor
MAP- where to mount
throttle position SW
CHT
IAT sensor- where to mount

pics would be great if anyone has them.
yes I am still searching threads and reading, but there are so many different ways people are doing things.

MAP sensor has to be under the throttle plate - otherwise it can't read vacuum, just like the boost gauge can't. Other than that, it can be pretty much anywhere. Mine is tee'd off a port on the throttle body.

IAT isn't incredibly useful in my experience, other than showing heat soak if you let the car idle or shut it off and start it again. It'll just read ambient within a couple of minutes of moving off. Mine is in the outlet neck of the intercooler; a port in the inlet manifold itself would likely work just as well.

Front-mounted pulley sensor is more convenient to get at/gap with the motor in the car - especially if you don't already have a factory EFI flywheel with the missing teeth and/or the notches in the transmisson for the sensors. And the bracket(s) etc.. Some say the flywheel is a better source (bigger teeth/stronger signal). I use a Bosch sensor (with Clewett's belt conversion) anyway, and it seems fine.

IAT sensor is 100% necessary along with a MAP sensor in order to calculate airflow using speed density. You want it to be in the airflow, but preferably not in the intercooler or on the intake manifold to reduce heat soak issues. Mine is installed on the pipe that connects the intercooler to the throttle body.

I'll add a few pics to the discussion:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578343462.JPG
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I think Spuggy was thinking of AmbT, which is not critical for normal use.

Well, I was thinking of Intake Air Temperature; mine (also in the intercooler hard pipe outlet to the throttle body) basically seems to do nothing interesting relative to ambient (mostly). But if the ECU uses it on an on-going basis, then OK... :)

You must have a really amazing intercooler then! Even with my turbokraft full bay, its never at ambient, and will get hotter pretty quickly on longer pulls. Its a necessary part of the equation for the ecu to properly calculate the amount of air entering the engine.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578344920.png

A few more pics of my mess of an engine:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578348531.JPG

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578348531.JPG

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578348531.JPG

Kokelyn; I do like 'em and it does seem to work pretty well, but I hadn't thought it was that exceptional.

Here's a log from a 30 minute drive, after the car sat baking in the sun (August, so probably 90F, at least) for several hours:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578347274.jpg

No, you're right.

Huh. I know heat soak is an issue on the dyno; even with box fans/bags of ice etc. But this is leisure driving - don't even reach spring rating, much less get the wastegate open.

The only time my IAT is the same as the ECU temp (in the engine bay) is before I start driving; see how it drops @ the 3-4 minute mark - when I use some RPM. CHT and oil (chaincase) temps climb when I stop and idle. But IAT and ECU temps don't seem to be very affected, as long as the fan is turning.

I see pretty much the same even in colder weather. IAT may rise a little with longer periods of boost - but this is a far cry from a dyno run, and it recovers very quickly at anything over 35 MPH.

If I stop for some reason and switch off, restarting within 5-10 minutes, IAT will spike considerably (20? 30C?) higher than the "moving" readings. And go back down within a few minutes of moving again, even on city streets.

got my MS3 EVO yesterday

I am using the stock 930 intake

Glad it made it ok. I would call up chris at turbokraft and he can get you set up with a lot of the adapter parts that will make your conversion much simpler.

david,
what cam sensor did you use.

does it have to be put in in a certain location as in TDC

Could I machine a hole here for the CLT

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578491451.jpg

Why not put it in the breather cover plate? There's probably a hole or a boss there for something else that is likely unused now. If not, its easy to do, new breather covers are cheaply available, and you don't run the chance of screwing up something expensive.

just remote the plate and do you drilling/tapping on the bench not on the engine lol

It's been over 12 years and I don't remember the specifics but I recall putting my magnet a little out of position so that the cam has to rotate at least one revolution before it's picked up which seems to add a fraction to the starting time.

Hopefully someone with more experience can chime in.

Most ECUs completely ignore cam signal - and thus won't fire either ignition or injectors, because they don't have sync - until they've seen enough pulses from it. Motec wants to see 2 pulses (non-configurable). Then they "know" where they are in relation to the crank ref and you're off to the races.

If crank ref is noisy - eg a mag sensor - actually getting sync can take more revolutions - due to bogus signals confusing the issue; helps a lot to establish how much voltage you're getting at cranking RPM (a product of the air gap setting for a mag sensor) and set the noise floor to ~60% of cranking voltage, so that any noise is ignored.

At idle, I see over 30V peak-to-peak (ie >15V above the zero axis) - but when cranking at 200 RPM or so, only ~2.2V peak-to-peak. Setting noise floor to 0.6V made starting a lot faster on the key - at a lower setting, it was clearly spinning over a few more times to get sync before trying to start.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578543014.JPG
^ Top upper left complements of Chris at TurboKraft for the air pump housing cam sync sensor.. 1/2 speed pickup for sequential fuel injection.
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