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T77911S's Avatar
 
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converting to EFI help

I am about to start putting the engine back to together in my 930.
I have twin plugged the heads and bought an MS3pro evo.
I am NOT going full EFI just yet.
plan is to break the engine in with old ign and CIS then get the ignition portion working to run the twin plugs from the MS3 and then later go full EFI.


my question now is mainly about knock sensors or any other EFI parts that would be easier to install now while the engine is apart.

what is the best knock sensor to use.

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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ SOLD
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08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
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Old 01-03-2020, 07:36 AM
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If you would like to get the crank position signal and the sync signal off of the flywheel, then now is a good time to mount the 60-2 flywheel with the sync pin.

Also, mount the WRO2 in the exhaust now might be nice.
Old 01-03-2020, 09:29 AM
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You can check out my spreadsheet of all the components I used for my conversion.
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=89033EA9FB01D9A0!911&ithint=file%2cxlsx&authkey=!AF3xZ4TG0wXhxq0
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'86 930 Guards Red - EFI MS3Pro, 80lb inj, 3.4, GT35R, Tial 46, Bosch 044, B&B Headers, 3.2 carrera manifold, Turbokraft Full bay IC
'12 Gallardo LP-570-4 Performante
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Old 01-03-2020, 10:09 AM
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got the bung in for the O2 already.

flywheel? is that better than using pulley trigger off the front or do I need both.
where to get the parts.
would I need a cam position sensor too.

how are people mounting the knock sensor.
what about CHT sensor.

would like to get these things in now if I can.


been reading lots of post on EFI but still confused as there are so many random posts and a lot is old info.
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ SOLD
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[__] RUNNING:[] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 01-03-2020, 10:54 AM
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You need either a cam or crank trigger. You will only need a cam sensor if you want to run sequential fueling/ignition. It is recommended that you do. There are several ways people have mounted the knock sensor. I personally mounted mine on an empty thread next to the oil breather cover and its worked great. Others have mounted under the engine shroud. CHT isnt really necessary, but the easiest way is to use turbokraft's kit that slides into the cooling fins. I bought one a couple years ago, but havent gotten around to installing it.
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'86 930 Guards Red - EFI MS3Pro, 80lb inj, 3.4, GT35R, Tial 46, Bosch 044, B&B Headers, 3.2 carrera manifold, Turbokraft Full bay IC
'12 Gallardo LP-570-4 Performante
'01 996tt
Ducati 748R
Old 01-03-2020, 11:16 AM
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Smart move to break in with existing setup if running new cams

Best to leave as much fins open in area as possible, CHT sensor can be placed elsewhere, or use an EGT sensor instead, best is 6 EGT sensors (one per exhaust) and sequential fueling/ign, then you take full adantage of EFI. As mentioned by others above, smart to consider cam sensor already now for sequential setup.


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Old 01-03-2020, 01:11 PM
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Don't think you'll find any big gains with sequential, sure you can dial in each cylinder if you have the capabilities to read the egt of each one but I doubt its going to make anymore power.
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Old 01-03-2020, 02:01 PM
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Seqential fueling and ignition is mostly for tuning safe on a shared AFR not leaving one or more cylinders lean when reading what appears to be safe AFR's and shared temperatures
Old 01-03-2020, 02:08 PM
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on the EFI list is also e-throttle with the advantages it offers on idle, shift control and not to forget"rolling anti-lag" feature on a long geared 930 e.g. in 2, 3rd or 4th gear

I milled a couple of flanges in alu 6082 to match up against the Carrera manifold and fit a standard Bosch 70mm drive by wire throttle. Carrera manifold has 66,5mm inlet hole, so the flange tapper from 70mm on the throttle to 66,5mm on the manifold and has a slot for the read OEM carrera throttle rubber o-ring to re-use on the back-side. I have a couple of spare Bosch 70mm e-throttle bodies as well if interested in a kit

Old 01-03-2020, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lite75 View Post
Don't think you'll find any big gains with sequential, sure you can dial in each cylinder if you have the capabilities to read the egt of each one but I doubt its going to make anymore power.
It's hard to get a good idle on large injectors with batch fire. Mine wouldnt idle smoothly over 11.5:1 on batch fire with the 80lb injectors. Once I switched to sequential I can idle at 14.5 with no issues. Another thing to consider is with sequential you can use the individual cylinder knock correction. Rather than retarding all the cylinders it will only pull timing on the cylinder that knocks. It really makes no sense to not add a cam sensor and utilize all the benefits of sequential fuel and ignition.
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'86 930 Guards Red - EFI MS3Pro, 80lb inj, 3.4, GT35R, Tial 46, Bosch 044, B&B Headers, 3.2 carrera manifold, Turbokraft Full bay IC
'12 Gallardo LP-570-4 Performante
'01 996tt
Ducati 748R
Old 01-03-2020, 02:48 PM
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Clewett Engineering is an excellent source (and resource) for EFI conversion components, including Clewett built twin plug coil on/near plug wires.
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Old 01-03-2020, 03:10 PM
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I would love more info on this. What pedal are you using(or going to use)? I only have microsquirt. Assuming an upgrade to MS3 would be in order to use this technology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakobM View Post
on the EFI list is also e-throttle with the advantages it offers on idle, shift control and not to forget"rolling anti-lag" feature on a long geared 930 e.g. in 2, 3rd or 4th gear

I milled a couple of flanges in alu 6082 to match up against the Carrera manifold and fit a standard Bosch 70mm drive by wire throttle. Carrera manifold has 66,5mm inlet hole, so the flange tapper from 70mm on the throttle to 66,5mm on the manifold and has a slot for the read OEM carrera throttle rubber o-ring to re-use on the back-side. I have a couple of spare Bosch 70mm e-throttle bodies as well if interested in a kit

Old 01-03-2020, 03:51 PM
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^^^ +1
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Old 01-03-2020, 05:08 PM
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Call Chris at TurboKraft, he can provide the CHT, Cam and Crank Position sensors and flywheel.

What injectors are you planning on running?

Did you get a wiring harness with the MS3?

Here's a good ref for the MS3 install: https://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/936814-ms3-pro-conversion-11.html

Good Luck
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Old 01-03-2020, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottrx7tt View Post
I would love more info on this. What pedal are you using(or going to use)? I only have microsquirt. Assuming an upgrade to MS3 would be in order to use this technology?
Almost any 6 pin e-pedal mechanism will do from any car manufacture and should hook up to the aftermarket ECU. Just pick one that suits your wallet, and read the wiring diagram Should not cost more than 50-75$ for a nice used or new model

Avoid the crazy-bling-bling-billet "porche money" shop factor and make it your self. Any parts that touches a porsche and can be polished seem to get the porsche-money syndrome these days. E-pedal is a normal part in all newer cars.

I havent looked for the specific pedal yet. I will tig-weld what ever bracket needed. I will properly find one on ebay or all-most new from a wracked car and make the bracket to fit. Should not be much time consuming or expensive to do the pedal. If you cannot weld your self, just go and pay the nearest good welder in your neighborhood, just like most shop owners do.

New DBW pedal example:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-BMW-X3-Hella-Accelerator-Pedal-Sensor-010946231-35426853175/153148153196?epid=14025294385&hash=item23a8575d6c:g:Hj4AAOSwlddceAye

Regarding upgrading EFI. Yes, you would properly need an upgrade if staying in the MS family. I have tuned with many EFI units, but never MS for several reasons. I know MS had a thing against e-throttle in the past (safety). The later models should have it today. Look up the spec list on the MS model you are after.

Another good option is VEMS sold by Raceboy here on the forum. He also build you the harness, and can support with the parts. He knows his stuff. He can set you up with a solid plug & play solution for normal none-porsche money, and ensure direct pro efi support

The carrera e-throttle kit pictured will be paired to a 930 on maxxecu "Race" model for single e-throttle, another 930 is planned for maxxecu Pro model on dual throttle. Personally I like the tablet app and customized digital touch pad input switch strategy. It allows for all stock appearance in the 930 when removing the tablet.

The pictured bosch e-throttle has 3' hose connection, the 70mm is internal

Rolling antilack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWyc5WVTUDc
Old 01-03-2020, 06:32 PM
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Megasquirt forum member "petski3" has developed and is selling a drive by wire controller that interfaces with MS3. It has dual cpu's for safety.

Megasquirt Support Forum (MSEXTRA) • The DriveByWire Controller (DBWX2) (View topic)
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Old 01-04-2020, 10:13 AM
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Has the electronic control proved to be reliable so far? In the event that the PWM driver fails does it fail open? I guess if the wires short high it is full throttle, correct?

Can it eliminate the IAC motor with mega squirt, or did you still need one?
Old 01-04-2020, 11:17 AM
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Anything running 72lb and over injectors will benefit from sequential setup. It is the idle quality that suffers from firing all the injectors in batch configuration. With smaller injectors it is easy because you don't have to trim down the injector time to the point where it isn't able to control the fuel. But when running large injectors you can't trim the injector low enough to actually open and close to properly meter the fuel. By running in sequential configuration you fire each injector only when each cylinder needs it. Rather than batch, which fires multiple times to all the cylinders regardless if it's needed or not.
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Old 01-04-2020, 01:29 PM
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Yes, this. Sequential is also easier on the plugs because it injects on a closed intake most of the time, which makes for better throttle response. A lot of bang for the buck.
Old 01-04-2020, 03:53 PM
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Not disagreeing with the benefits as I’m running it myself but depending on your hp goals/injector size as GJF mentions above batch fire can work extremely well with good injectors when set up correctly. If you do go the sequential route add the sensors to take full advantage of it.

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Old 01-05-2020, 07:57 AM
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