Thermo Tech Header Insulation Wrap

madkow · 11-29-2007, 01:47 AM

Is it safe to wrap Stainless Steel Headers in Thermo Tech wrap? Could it damage the turbo?

David · David's Garage

It won't damage the turbo but it will lead to faster failure of the headers.

BoxxerSix · 11-30-2007, 09:30 AM

Yeah, wrap doesn't allow the headers to dissipate heat and can cause them to fail very quickly. Either ceramic coat(in and out) or just leave them be. For the cost, I highly recommend the ceramic coat. Either Swain Techs White Lightning, or Jet Hot's Ceramichrome are real nice. Both lead to lower engine temps and on most aftermarket header setup can yield a good 50 to 100rpm quicker spoolup of the turbo due to the increased thermal energy at the turbine itself.

rsrfan · 11-30-2007, 08:49 PM

Do NOT ceramic coat the inside of the headers. The ceramic will flake off and cause FOD to the turbine blades. Fine for NA, bad for a turbo.

JP

BoxxerSix · 12-01-2007, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsrfan

Do NOT ceramic coat the inside of the headers. The ceramic will flake off and cause FOD to the turbine blades. Fine for NA, bad for a turbo.

JP

???? If the part is properly prepped and the ceramic coating company knows what they're doing, the ceramic will not flake off internally. The only way it's coming off is if you somehow manage to bottom out your car, crushing your exhaust and causing the coating inside to crack. The only coating that will probably go to that point even when crushed is White Lightning as it's the only coating that's pure ceramic and it's fragile. Companies like Jethot have developed coatings that literaly become part of the metal. I've built dozens upon dozens of headers all ceramic coated and more turbo motors than I know with ceramic coated pistons and flaking ceramic has never happened and never damaged a turbo.

When I(and ex business partner) built this bike we spec'd out Jet Hot's Ceramicrome and mirror polished it for the entire exhaust system. The silver/black canisters on the side are the functional exhaust canisters and the black nose piece is a functional ball bearing spinning turbine unit inserted in position to replicate a jet engine on the side of an aircraft. To get that piece to fit inside the ceramic coated canister I had to MACHINE off the internal ceramic coating at the lip. Not sand, not scrape, not chip.....machine it off. It's not going to flake off if kept within it's normal parameters. If you manage to heat the ceramic beyond it's capabilities to melt it....you have more engine issues to worry about that little ceramic pieces hitting the turbine...

87 930 · 87 930's Garage

Madkow, Don't do it! I've done it and, just as 125 shifter and BoxxerSix say, it shortens the life of the headers drastically. The metallurgy is upset and they become very brittle and easily fracture.

strokher racing · 12-01-2007, 08:47 AM

If they are prepped right you will have no issues with coating the inside of the headers. I would lean away from ceramic coating on a turbo engine. It looks great, but is right at the limit of what it can handle depending on your egt's. I would go with something that has a bit higher temp rating such as titanium. Here is a sample on my turbo

rsrfan · 12-01-2007, 08:53 AM

Its your engine. Both Kevin from Ultimate Motorwerkes and Swain Tech advise against coating the inside of headers due to the fact that you cannot sufficiently prepare the surface deep inside the headers to accept the ceramic. If one small piece flakes off and comes into contact with the turbine impeller at 100,000 plus rpms, big trouble.

JP

rsrfan · 12-01-2007, 08:59 AM

By the way, Gorgeous bike. I am in no way an expert here. But I am having Swain Tech do my headers and hot housing and am repeating what I have been told.

JP

BoxxerSix · 12-01-2007, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsrfan

Its your engine. Both Kevin from Ultimate Motorwerkes and Swain Tech advise against coating the inside of headers due to the fact that you cannot sufficiently prepare the surface deep inside the headers to accept the ceramic. If one small piece flakes off and comes into contact with the turbine impeller at 100,000 plus rpms, big trouble.

JP

If you have the right tool you can blast the inside of a header. It's called a draw through snake. Essentially a flexible hose with a wide angle blasting nozzle that has spring loaded "fingers" that keep the nozzle centered in the primary. Inserted in the pipe, blast media is started, then drawn through the pipe to prep the inner surface. Nozzle covers a 360 degree area with a ~100 blast angle. I always prep my manifolds myself prior to sending them out to any ceramic coater as I can guarantee a perfect surface. Works very well.

And again, you're using Swain Technologies for the coating. They are the only manufacturers/applicators of a pure ceramic coating. It's comes out rough(like oxide) and is brittle. If you strike the part with a hammer(not that you would) the ceramic will crack and break off. Of course they're going to tell you not to run it in a turbo setup as they don't want to deal with the responsibility of it. Try that same test with Jethot's coatings, and you'll flatten the pipe before you even get a crack, if you do at all. I've yet to have a failure and have been using it for a LONG time on street and race applications. Jethot also offers a lifetime warranty on the coating and guarantees against failure for life no matter what the circumstance is.

The bike....thanks for the comment. First and only project bike I've ever built like that. Ground up design and build. Only part we didn't design, fab, build, and/or modify in house was the front fork. Full custom LED and Xenon lighting, electronics, one off PPG paint mixes, retractable 2nd rider pegs and seat, one off billet wheels, on and on. ~$200K(parts and labor) later and this is what the customer got. Huge Jets football fan if you didn't notice

Probably won't ever get the chance to do something this extreme again in my lifetime. If you want to see more pictures I have ~2 gig's worth from fab stages, paint, cnc, all the way up to the magazine photoshoots pictures.

Miguel Antonett · 12-01-2007, 12:21 PM

I'd say yes, it keeps the rest of the engine cooler and better fuel burning process.

madkow · 12-01-2007, 01:09 PM

I read Thermo Tec's questions and answers webpage. They don't mention anything about stainless steel! They only talk about cast iron headers and they go on to say:

Q. When is it not recommended to use header wrap on cast iron exhaust manifolds on a turbo engine?

A. Cracking on stock exhaust manifolds and housing has never been a problem. Manifolds to the turbo can be a problem only if extensive modifications have been made to the castings. These types of castings have a high failure rate even without the wrap being applied to them. This is due to the uneven wall thickness of the castings from the machine work performed to improve flow of the manifold. The heat cycle generated could cause the cast iron to become brittle eventually causing cracking to occur.

jrottn · 12-03-2007, 10:35 AM

I was planning on wrapping my 934 headers but am now obviously thinking otherwise
Where can you get headers coated?

BoxxerSix · 12-03-2007, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrottn

I was planning on wrapping my 934 headers but am now obviously thinking otherwise
Where can you get headers coated?

Dozens of places do this, but I recommend Jet Hot. I'll back they're coatings and I don't even work for them

jrottn · 12-04-2007, 06:11 AM

Is it worth doing the hot housing as well?
Thanks in advance
john

BoxxerSix · 12-04-2007, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrottn

Is it worth doing the hot housing as well?
Thanks in advance
john

Exterior but not inside as the inner machining specs between the discharge surface and exducer are tight. Pending on the company and type of coating the thickness can range from less than .001" to .1"......

Ag02M5 · 12-05-2007, 04:05 PM

What are people doing with the heater boxes. If coating the inside of those, I am guessing the heat in the car will be much reduced. But if you don't coat inside the boxes, you are losing some benefit.

Thoughts?

BoxxerSix · 12-05-2007, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ag02M5

What are people doing with the heater boxes. If coating the inside of those, I am guessing the heat in the car will be much reduced. But if you don't coat inside the boxes, you are losing some benefit.

Thoughts?

I've never coated a set of headers with heat boxes to be honest. Every Porsche header set I've built has been sans heat. You cannot physically coat the inside of the heater boxes without taking them apart and re-welding after. You can coat over them on the outside with the rest of the header, as well as inside the primaries.

I'd imagine you'd get some heat loss, but you'd still get heat. The coating doesn't cut heat so drastically that you still don't get hot headers.