Top End Rebuild and Turbo Project underway

[mb911]

boost guage setup must be the wrong order of hooking the parts up as I did the same thing and did the same as yours the 1st time

[polizei]

We solved the problem of the throttle body elbow blowing off by using rivets to fasten the elbow to the collar of the AFM. Perhaps taboo, but very effective.

I drove the car around for a good bit and really didn't feel much of an increase in power from when the car was normally aspirated. I still wasn't getting a reading on the boost gauge, yet I was definitely getting compressed air into the charge pipe because the blow off valve was sounding loud and clear on each shift. It seemed there had to be some fall out between the charge pipe and the manifold, but there were no leaks to be found.

I hooked up the boost gauge to a vacuum line T'd off of the blow off valve and still no boost. Doug mentioned to try disconnecting the air filter plumbing, and just see what happens. Low and behold, we got a boost reading! The air filter we disconnected resided in the engine compartment. The turbo has a 3" compressor inlet, but I couldn't maintain 3" plumbing to the air filter, so I decreased it to 2.5" plumbing for part of the stretch. Unfortunately it also took 6 90 degree bends to get the filter in there. Do you guys think I was starving the the turbo?

Took it out for a couple runs and hit .7 Bar on the dot. I tried reconnecting the boost gauge to the line proceeding from the brake booster, but we weren't getting a reading ( though this was with the alternative air filter setup which sits in the driver's side rear wheel well). I'll try connecting the boost gauge to the other vacuum connection running off of the BOV to determine whether this alternative air filter setup is too restrictive also or if I've connected the boost gauge incorrectly.

It definitely felt faster when taking it out last night, but I might say I was expecting more. I still haven't gotten the fuel dialed in precisely yet, so I'm sure that has something to do with it. It appeared that I wasn't hitting full boost until 4000 RPM, but I need to do some more runs. I'm a bit hesitant to run it hard until I break it in some more and get the LM-1 working again. I'd also like to know what the max fuel pressure I'm hitting is. I'm guessing the lag has part to do with the stock heat exchanger. Do you think the 2" compressor outlet has anything to do with the lag?

More to come! Thanks for all your help guys.

[mb911]

yeah something is still wrong as you should have trouble getting the tires to hook up if you romp on it.. I am still guessing the boost gauge is hooked up incorrect can you take a quick picture and I can tell you for sure if its right or wrong.

[spence88mph]

I drove the car around for a good bit and really didn't feel much of an increase in power from when the car was normally aspirated.

something is wrong, you sure the system is air tight? Mine started leaking just slightly from the elbow and power was right down almost to NA, once I replaced the elbow it was fishtail time. You can get a fitting that goes over your turbo inlet and allows you to pressurize the system. Make sure the whole thing is air tight, the carrera intake manifold can leak too if not correctly torqued.

intake leak testers:
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/index.php?cPath=8&osCsid=d5a89d5a8d630d42b93a053460a72892

[911st]

If I recall correctly I talked to Tod a couple of years ago when he was concentrating on his low pressure blow though system. He was having challenges with it blowing up the elbow.

Might look for cracks there.

Sometimes if one dose not prelube the turbo bearing it can fail but that is usually on a bushing style bearing. Probably a low probability in your case.

Just a couple of shots in the dark.

[polizei]

Originally Posted by mb911

I am still guessing the boost gauge is hooked up incorrect can you take a quick picture and I can tell you for sure if its right or wrong.

I'll take a picture tonight.

Originally Posted by spence88mph

something is wrong, you sure the system is air tight?

Originally Posted by 911st

If I recall correctly I talked to Tod a couple of years ago when he was concentrating on his low pressure blow though system. He was having challenges with it blowing up the elbow.

Might look for cracks there.

I did get a reading of .7 Bar on the turbo gauge (when I T'd a vacuum line off of the BOV). This is exactly what I was hoping to get, but it didn't feel a lot faster than a stock Carrera. The fact that I'm getting a reading of .7 BAR means that the turbo plumbing is air tight, correct?

Originally Posted by 911st

Sometimes if one dose not prelube the turbo bearing it can fail but that is usually on a bushing style bearing. Probably a low probability in your case.

Thanks for the tip, but I believe the turbo was delivered pre-lubed as there were traces of oil when I first got it.

I'm guessing there is some other issue at play here. Before I resolved the issue with the leak in the turbo plumbing and the elbow blowing off, the engine couldn't rev above 4000 RPM - both with the stock chip and the Protomotive. Even with the lowered compression (from 9.5:1 to 8.0:1), this should not be the case. For the problem to be with the pistons & cylinders wouldn't the compression have to be grossly low?

I'm wondering if any of the following things could cause this:

1. Cams not timed correctly
2. Distributor not installed corerctly (timing the distributor?).
3. Andial Splitter not hooked up correctly. I confirmed with Todd that he programmed the chip for twin plugs and that it should work just fine with the Andial Splitter.
4. Reference/RPM sensors not installed with correct gap.

I don't think there's anything that can be done about the ignition timing with the stock Motronic setup - as that's all up to the Protomotive chip now. I guess the next steps I'll take is to verify that I'm getting spark at all 12 plugs. This should verify that there's not a problem with the splitter, right? Next, we could take the distributor out and verify that it's installed (timed) correctly. Could the reference/RPM sensors not installed with the correct gaps cause a significant drop in power?

Please let me know what other hunches you guys have as to what the problem could be. Thanks guys.

***Edit***
I don't know if it helps you guys to diagnose the issue at all, but car is backfiring, sputtering, and farting a lot - especially on engine deceleration.

[jbrinkley]

4. Reference/RPM sensors not installed with correct gap.

I don't think your car would start if this was an issue. cht going bad maybe, but your car would stall when warm, or not start at all.

backfiring, sputtering, and farting
function of fuel, exhaust, and where your air filter is, and what type.

hey, is there a cat on your car? I don't remember.

and reply to pm here.

I believe the gauge works that way because we have a gauge on the return side of the fuel system. The stock reg keeps the rail pressure at a specified level. The return side is not pressurized as it returns to the tank. (well, not above ambient I assume)
If you were to monitor pressure at the rail it would read true pressure all the time.
An electric sender on the return side, even without a turbo reads zero.

I had a rail test cap that I tapped for a 1/8 inch NPT oil filled gauge. I've posted a picture of it before. I used this before the turbo install when I was checking injectors and stuff.

My fuel gauge that was in the cabin (electric) only worked on boost and basically showed rising pressure. It came off zero and swept up to max pressure at max boost.

I put a new pump and new injectors in, so I wasn't really concerned about idle pressure for the most part.

I would say that if you did a volume over time check you can assume idle pressure is good in conjunction with the lm-1.

Don't discount that a small leak, maybe even half of your top pressure, boost, could easily occur on the throttle boot. Those crack pretty easy. My old one had a crack in it and did close to what yours is doing.

If you have a boost gauge and the lm-1 you can assume the fuel pressure is going up based on the lm-1 readings.

If boost goes up and afr's go down you can only assume fuel pressure is raising.
But you must have a functioning boost gauge. Don't take it from the BOV. Although this verifies that your turbo is spinning up, that's about it.

Of the three things, boost gauge, lm-1, and fuel gauge, you really have to be monitoring, or logging, two of them while driving.

I got my boost/vac signal from under the butterfly on the throttle body. I don't really like getting it from the front of the car. But that's just me.
Monitoring it on the engine leaves out any other leaks that may or may not be there in those hoses behind number three plenum and running up to the booster.
plus, I liked seeing vacuum at idle.

So, I would say don't go get an electric fuel sender, unless you want to run wires. If you do you might as well run some boost gauge tubing along with it. And If you do, and want to make it really nice, plumb the sender to the rail with a Tee off the test port.

I would go with what you got and see where the air is going, it's going somewhere for sure.

Be careful driving around without being able to monitor at least two of the three things. AFR, boost, fuel pressure.

This could be a simple problem, I bet it is.
Take some pictures.
pipe to AFM
AFM to throttle boot
throttle boot to throttle
what does the pipeline, OEM term, connection look like at the back of the throttle boot? That's that copper tube thing

And the ICV hose, hows that connection?
I'm starting to ramble, let me get a beer

[911st]

Could put at TDC mark on your pulley and put a timing light on it. Then you can see where you timing is and how it advances. Also could put it on number one on each bank of the distributor to be sure both sides are firing.

Is the distributor indexed correctly?

With 12 plug wires are you sure they are all attached correctly?

Pre lubing the turbo is hooking it up and leaving the oil return disconnected and turning the motor over w/o fuel or spark till oil starts running out of the bottom of the turbo. This gets the air out of the supply so there is not a dry start.

[polizei]

Originally Posted by jbrinkley

hey, is there a cat on your car? I don't remember.

Nope. Exempt from emissions inspection so long as your drive it less than 5,000 miles per year in PA.

Originally Posted by jbrinkley

I believe the gauge works that way because we have a gauge on the return side of the fuel system. The stock reg keeps the rail pressure at a specified level. The return side is not pressurized as it returns to the tank. (well, not above ambient I assume) If you were to monitor pressure at the rail it would read true pressure all the time. An electric sender on the return side, even without a turbo reads zero.

Ahhh this makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by jbrinkley

Don't discount that a small leak, maybe even half of your top pressure, boost, could easily occur on the throttle boot. Those crack pretty easy. My old one had a crack in it and did close to what yours is doing.

Do you think I could still have a leak even if I'm getting a .7 BAR reading from inside the intake manifold? Am I wrong in thinking that the problem DOES NOT lie with the turbo and its plumbing since I'm achieving my target boost within the intake manifold? If I were to disconnect part of the turbo plumbing and run normally aspirated, put the stock chip back in, and take off the BEGI, I should achieve a smooth acceleration through the RPM range, correct? I believe under these conditions that I would still experience the engine cutting out at 4,000 RPM, but I can try it again to verify.

My LM-1 crapped out, and I took Jerry's advice to look into on the Innovate forums. I'll post any updates when I find out what's up.

Originally Posted by jbrinkley

Take some pictures.
pipe to AFM
AFM to throttle boot
throttle boot to throttle
what does the pipeline, OEM term, connection look like at the back of the throttle boot? That's that copper tube thing

And the ICV hose, hows that connection?
I'm starting to ramble, let me get a beer

I'll take some pics tonight. Forgive my ignorance, but what's the ICV hose?

Originally Posted by 911st

Could put at TDC mark on your pulley and put a timing light on it. Then you can see where you timing is and how it advances. Also could put it on number one on each bank of the distributor to be sure both sides are firing.

Is the distributor indexed correctly?

With 12 plug wires are you sure they are all attached correctly?

I'll start with the plug wires to make sure they're in there correctly and move from there.

Originally Posted by 911st

Pre lubing the turbo is hooking it up and leaving the oil return disconnected and turning the motor over w/o fuel or spark till oil starts running out of the bottom of the turbo. This gets the air out of the supply so there is not a dry start.

Ahhh - I understand now. Am I ok in this regard since I'm achieving .7 bar in the intake manifold?

YOU GUYS ROCK!

[jbrinkley]

I didn't know you got .7 inside the intake. you did? I thought .7 at the bov?

idle control valve


if you put the stock chip in you'd run in six plug mode. The turbo chip is not that much different from the stock chip. Yours is different for the twelve plugs.

[polizei]

Originally Posted by jbrinkley

I didn't know you got .7 inside the intake. you did? I thought .7 at the bov?

Ohh, I see the confusion now. I T'd off of the vacuum line running to the BOV from the back of the throttle body (below the throttle plate). So, yes, I'm certain the intake manifold is achieving .7 BAR boost.

Yes, the ICV hose is secure then.

[jbrinkley]

well hell, I don't know what to say.

[polizei]

Originally Posted by jbrinkley

well hell, I don't know what to say.

Yikes.

[jbrinkley]

do you think there is a problem with the rebuild, or does it run fine without any forced air?

[polizei]

Originally Posted by jbrinkley

do you think there is a problem with the rebuild, or does it run fine without any forced air?

There was NO power after 3500 RPM when I ran it normally aspirated. It's like the engine just gave up. That was when I had the venturi tube disconnected from the throttle body elbow, but I can't imagine a leak like that would prevent the engine from revving beyond 3500.

I'm going take the BEGI rrfpr off, put the stock chip back in, and run it normally aspirated. If there's still a problem, I'll yank the twin plug distributor and andial splitter and go back to single plug.

Does that sound reasonable?

[hobieboy]

Haven't read the entire thread fully but here's my 2 cents...
a) Why not use the T-connection to the BOV for your boost gauge permanently? That will also tell you exactly what your engine sees in real time (& remove more unknowns from the equation)?

b) In post #262, it sounds like you are getting boost & things are running correctly?

c) The stock exchanger will certainly add to the lag

[jbrinkley]

you dont have to take the begi off, gas runs through it normal without a signal to it. relax the center screw and the side screw and it will be fine

[WERK I]

Originally Posted by polizei

.............I'm going take the BEGI rrfpr off, put the stock chip back in, and run it normally aspirated. If there's still a problem, I'll yank the twin plug distributor and andial splitter and go back to single plug.

Does that sound reasonable?

Have you talked to Todd about having a rrfpr on your car? I would think that this a variable that could throw your fuel mapping off. If your rrfpr has a boost sensor port, if could be disconnected, thereby making it a fixed fuel pressure regulator.

[polizei]

Originally Posted by hobieboy

Haven't read the entire thread fully but here's my 2 cents...
a) Why not use the T-connection to the BOV for your boost gauge permanently? That will also tell you exactly what your engine sees in real time (& remove more unknowns from the equation)?

Ben has the same boost gauge running off of the brake booster. He's going to help me verify that I have it hooked up correctly. If I do have it hooked up correctly, and it's still not working then I'll run it off of the T-connection with the BOV.

Originally Posted by hobieboy

b) In post #262, it sounds like you are getting boost & things are running correctly?

Correct. I'm now taking the engine rebuild into question[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by WERK-I

Have you talked to Todd about having a rrfpr on your car? I would think that this a variable that could throw your fuel mapping off. If your rrfpr has a boost sensor port, if could be disconnected, thereby making it a fixed fuel pressure regulator.

Yes, I have. He runs a rrfpr on cars similar to mine running low boost. Others here, including Jerry, have successfully used the BEGI rrfpr in their turbo conversions. The only reason I didn't use Protomotive's rrfpr is that it costs $500 more than the BEGI. Todd has emailed me this in regards to the rrfpr:

Ours is dual rate, running 2.8 bar 1/1 under NA conditions, and 3.8/1 ratio with a 2.8bar base above atmospheric pressure. If you can come close to these conditions, it'll work fine. Check fuel pressure. It should be 2.8 bar with no vacuum line connected, about 2.5 bar connected and idling, and adds 3.8 bar for every 1 bar of pressure on the vacuum line. So, at 1 bar of boost, it should be 6.6 bar fuel pressure. Plus or minus a little bit.

[beepbeep]

If engine runs/idles nicely but doesn't make power, check and doublecheck ignition timing. It may be retarded. Telltale is very hot headers. Sure you don't have dizzy a tooth off?