Top End Rebuild and Turbo Project underway

[polizei]

Originally Posted by x98boardwell

Question,

Not that I'm an expert by any means, just curious.

Won't all of the 90 degree bends that you have effect the effieciency of the turbo and create a delay of boost?

Thanks,
Bryan

I'm curious as well. I tried to go with slow 90 degree turns (2 coupled 45 degree turns) from the turbo to the throttle body). It makes sense to me that the more turns you have in this section, the less efficient the turbo will be. I didn't have much of a choice in regard to the plumbing from the air filter to the turbo. Would all those bends have a significant negative effect on the turbo and/or its efficiency? I don't know, but I'd like to learn.

[x98boardwell]

Andy,

I'm not sure of there will be a way to quantify how it effects your boost but keep us posted if there are any issues.

I realize (like mine) that 930's have a lot of plumbing involved, but it is a pre-fabbed pipe that is a solid unit without any restrictions for the most part.. meaning less then I think you will have... including edges of fittings, tubing seams, etc.

The project turned out great. I have been following silently since the first post. Great job!

Thanks,
Bryan

[polizei]

Originally Posted by x98boardwell

I realize (like mine) that 930's have a lot of plumbing involved, but it is a pre-fabbed pipe that is a solid unit without any restrictions for the most part.. meaning less then I think you will have... including edges of fittings, tubing seams, etc.

Your point is well taken. I paid close attention when cutting all the pipes to smooth the edges with a file or bench grinder where necessary. I think the collective negative effect of the plumbing between the turbo and the throttle body will be pretty unrecognizable. With no intercooler, I'm hoping this setup will spool very quickly.

I'm more so concerned about the air filter plumbing. I have an alternative set of plumbing and an air filter to run behind the rear wheel which has only one 90 degree bend. I'll run some tests to see at what RPM a given boost level is reached. Should be interesting. I'm also curious about how much the ambient air temperature has an effect on the temperature of the air coming out of the turbo. With these two air filter setups (one in the rear wheel well and one in the engine compartment) combined with the Andial air temp gauge, I should be able to make some conclusions.

[NathanUK]

You won't pick up any dirt in the engine bay unlike outside of it.

[polizei]

Originally Posted by NathanUK

You won't pick up any dirt in the engine bay unlike outside of it.

It's the water I'm concerned about.

[spence88mph]

You won't pick up any dirt in the engine bay unlike outside of it.

My airfilter is directly on my turbo, it does get dirty (more dirty than it would if it was inside the car no doubt) but not as bad as you'd imagine, if you have a look it's well out the way of the wheel flicking stuff up and quite well protected in there. Even when it's pissing down and I go for a drive I always check the filter and it doesn't get wet, it's well out the way. I just like how it simplies the whole setup. Many people run pod filters right up the front of their cars where it would get quite wet with little problem, you can always get a sock to cover it if that's your concern.

I really dont think water is an issue either way unless it was drowned in it.

[spence88mph]

Oh and by the way my car is a wide body so maybe on a narrow car like yours Andy the turbo entry is more in line with the wheel plus you moving your turbo an extra few inches that direction...

Your intake plumbing doesn't look restrictive to me, less restrictive than a stock 930 bend and intake.

[polizei]

Originally Posted by spence88mph

My airfilter is directly on my turbo, it does get dirty (more dirty than it would if it was inside the car no doubt) but not as bad as you'd imagine, if you have a look it's well out the way of the wheel flicking stuff up and quite well protected in there. Even when it's pissing down and I go for a drive I always check the filter and it doesn't get wet, it's well out the way. I just like how it simplies the whole setup. Many people run pod filters right up the front of their cars where it would get quite wet with little problem, you can always get a sock to cover it if that's your concern.

I really dont think water is an issue either way unless it was drowned in it.

Hey Spence - I replied to your email. When I took my car out the other day, it was raining, and I was using the air filter with a plastic guard in the rear wheel well. When I took down that plumbing to install the plumbing to put the filter in the engine compartment, a good bit of water poured out.

[les_garten]

Originally Posted by spence88mph

My airfilter is directly on my turbo, it does get dirty (more dirty than it would if it was inside the car no doubt) but not as bad as you'd imagine, if you have a look it's well out the way of the wheel flicking stuff up and quite well protected in there. Even when it's pissing down and I go for a drive I always check the filter and it doesn't get wet, it's well out the way. I just like how it simplies the whole setup. Many people run pod filters right up the front of their cars where it would get quite wet with little problem, you can always get a sock to cover it if that's your concern.

I really dont think water is an issue either way unless it was drowned in it.

With your setup, I've never worried about the water so much as the filter drops off and my Turbo ingests a Rock.

[polizei]

The chip has arrived! We'll begin tuning this evening I'll be using the LM-1. What should be my target AFR's be for idle and WOT and full boost? Do twin plugs have any bearing on what my AFR's should be? thanks!

[jbrinkley]

at least this should be the easy part right?
low compression, less than 14.4 psi, twin plugged,

I don't like reading your thread anymore. It really makes me want to put together another one.
I'm envious, lol

[beepbeep]

Originally Posted by polizei

The chip has arrived! We'll begin tuning this evening I'll be using the LM-1. What should be my target AFR's be for idle and WOT and full boost? Do twin plugs have any bearing on what my AFR's should be? thanks!

idle/low load: 14.7
WOT: 12.2

[polizei]

Originally Posted by jbrinkley

at least this should be the easy part right?

I was hoping this would be the case. Maybe it's turned out to be difficult because I'm a nube...

Anyways, I've got a couple issues i've encountered tonight. The idle was originally running high - around 1200ish. I was able to get it down to 1000 by adjust the idle switch (still a little high). After driving it around for an hour or so, the idle suddenly dropped to around 500. I didn't yet try adjusting it from here. I also set the fuel quality switch all the way to the left (counterclockwise), which I believe is the 0 marker.

After calibrated the LM-1 and began with readings at idle (1200ish) around 20 AFR. I began adjusting the rrfpr with the vacuum line disconnected (felt like there was plenty of vacuum) and adjusted the on set screw clockwise, increasing the fuel pressure. This seemed to drop the AFRs to around 17. I increased the fuel pressure further but it seemed to have a counter effect, increasing the AFRs to 20. I eventually settled on the 17 AFR and took it out for a little drive. As soon as I gave it a little throttle it jumped to 14 AFR and to 10 AFR on moderate throttle.

I couldn't get past 3500-4000 RPM in any gear. It accelerated slowly to this point and then started running roughly and no more power. I'm going to verify that we're getting spark at all plugs next.

Any advice? This is first time tuning anything. I'd appreciate any help you guys can give. Thanks.

[jbrinkley]

I would really start by getting idle mix at 14.7. leave the begi at a neutral setting at first. If you can't get that then there is something wrong. I wouldn't even drive it without getting idle mix right at 900 rpm.
your off idle/ full throttle switch must work. same with the barn door signal.


look for an air leak

use the small white restrictor in the signal line to the rr reg

be careful raising the rate without knowing what pressure you're getting at the top. It is possible to pop fuel lines with that reg. (im guessing here) you don't want to get too close to burst pressure.

idle pressure should be close to 40, little less than. I think there are 4 people on pelican that can verify that number.

Are you getting full throttle signal to the dme?

Is the barn door signal to the dme decent?

the chip is set up for twin plug right?

What about the splitter?

I would say some thing is up with the chip, afm, splitter, full throttle input from the afm and butterfly, or an air leak.


I guess I'd make sure all 12 were firing and the chip and splitter are all working well and then go from there

[911st]

I am not familiar with you adjustable raising rate FPR. It sounds like you are trying to calibrate it to work w your chip.

Did Tod give you some specs to set it at?

If not I would assume you would start out at stock fuel pressure settings.

I would first make sure the vac you are pulling is at spec. You just built that motor and there are several things that could affect it.

I would hook the FPR up and test the fuel pressure at idle and blip the throttle to see that it is raising.

I do not know the factory tests for fuel pressure but I thought it was more like 32-36 lbs at idle w the everything hooked up and running.

The other approach is to like you are trying which would be to use the fuel pressure to set idle AFR. To do this everything has to be hooked up with proper vac.

As to the gain or how fast the fuel pressure raises I suspect the starting point is that after idle is set right you would disconnect the vac line to simulate loss of vac like under full throttle and the FPR would be set for the factory spec or a target that Tod set the chip to work at.

Again I assume there are two ways to adjust the FPR. One for base pressure and the other for gain or how fast the pressure raises. You may have to play these two adjustments off against each other to get yor idle pressure/AFR and no-vac pressure where they need to be.

Then you would do your traceability fine tuning where you would play w the gain rate until you hit your target AF's under boost.

For a NA motor the target AF is around 12/1. On a turbo and one that is not running an inter-cooler you may want to target something closer to 11/ under full boost for an added cooling effect. This will cost a little Hp but will be cooler and safer. In the 10's is rich.

[jbrinkley]

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idle pressure spec is 33-39 idle with vac line off the begi (leaking) I wouldn't worry about this much if the two valves on the fmu are loose.
but something is screwing up your idle mix. start there.

mix spec is .6 to 1% CO = 14.22 - 14.1 AFR = .976 - .959 L if you have the lm1 set on lambda

my car idled at 13.5 cold and after a few minutes would go to 14.5 -14.7 without running an o2 sensor.

edit, like i said in that note, removing the vac line should make your gauge read the static pressure. once you connect it back to the fmu the gauge drops to zero.

[mb911]

Originally Posted by jbrinkley

http://i38.tinypic.com/25kmz4j.jpg 16
http://i33.tinypic.com/2nl6bye.jpg 17
http://i35.tinypic.com/ie49yo.jpg 18
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http://i35.tinypic.com/sxn6ef.jpg 20

idle pressure spec is 33-39 idle with vac line off the begi (leaking) I wouldn't worry about this much if the two valves on the fmu are loose.
but something is screwing up your idle mix. start there.

mix spec is .6 to 1% CO = 14.22 - 14.1 AFR = .976 - .959 L if you have the lm1 set on lambda

my car idled at 13.5 cold and after a few minutes would go to 14.5 -14.7 without running an o2 sensor.

edit, like i said in that note, removing the vac line should make your gauge read the static pressure. once you connect it back to the fmu the gauge drops to zero.

Great info jerry ready to do another one yet? are you bracing for the storm?? Hope all is well

[jbrinkley]

hey Ben
ya, it's raining just a wee bit

[polizei]

Jerry, you were right on your first guess. There was an air leak between the throttle body rubber elbow and the venturi tube (the line running up to the brake booster). We got that snugged down and down and we were able to get the AFR's closer to 15 at idle, and it cured the acceleration problem! We took it for a short drive and hit boost a few times before the rubber elbow between the throttle body and the AFM blew off (Spence, you were right man). I tried using a better T-bolt clamp and that allowed us to take it to 6000 RPM. AWESOME speed, followed by the elbow blowing off again and the engine cutting out. I've tried an elaborate combination of zip ties as a temporary solution but that's not working out so well :-( It would be easy enough to use a silicone elbow, but I still need to plumb lines for the Venturi tube and for idle. What have you guys done to get around this?

The other issue pertains to the boost gauge. I'm not getting any positive pressure reading under boost (when the rubber elbow decides to stay on), but I am getting a negative pressure reading under vacuum. I'm using the NHS boost gauge (VDO Clock replacement). I couldn't find any leaks in the engine compartment or where the gauge connects to the brake booster. Any suggestions on where to look next? How would I check for a failing brake booster?

The Innovate LM-1 stopped working at the end of yesterday I'll call Innovate and see what they can do for me.

Thanks for all of your help guys. Couldn't have done any of this without you guys.

[jbrinkley]

there's a check valve in the booster line I believe, in the engine bay.

My rubber boot only came off on occasion. Only in very cold weather, and on very hard second to third gear shifts.

My boot was new though, and I cleaned the boot, throttle, and afm mating surfaces very well.

Glad it was an easy fix, do you want to post what happened to the lm1?

edit, don't forget the innovate forums http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/index.php