Top End Rebuild and Turbo Project underway

[les_garten]

Originally Posted by polizei

The more reading I do, the more I think my cylinders have been machined for flame ring. I'm also reading that the heads must be machined as well to accept the ring. In which case, I'd either need to send my heads out to get machined again, or get different cylinders. How can I tell the difference between whether it just needs a gasket or if it needs a ring?

I've cut my heads for C2 Turbo gaskets and they are about 8-10 mm wide and flat. There is a huge difference between the C2 Gaskets and what you have. Also, the cylinders are not touched for the C2 Gaskets.

[lite75]

those are cut for flame rings, 3.3 cylinders did not use the CE style gasket like the 3.0L. I would cut your heads for the flame rings or start with different cylinders. If you need any specs on the flame rings let me know, I currently have my 3.3 apart that is using them.

Dan

[polizei]

I'm also reading that some 3.3L cylinders were designed to accept crush rings. Would there be any difference in the cylinder heads for cylinders needing crush rings versus those that do not?

[onboost]

Andy,

Looking at the close-up pics you have I would say too that your cylinders are cut for flame rings. Both the motor in my car and a spare/parts motor I have had flame rings and look like you're pics.

Assume of course that your heads have the same groove? If you can't find the rings, which should be stainless, try JB Racing in FL.

Paul

[WERK I]

Originally Posted by polizei

Is it possible that mine are flame ringed and thus need head gaskets? If so, does anyone have a suggestion on where to buy them? Thanks guys.

Yep, those are 3.3 cylinders that have been flame ringed. Plus, you definitely have higher compression pistons in there. The factory 3.0, 3.3l pistons did not have valve reliefs.

[polizei]

Thanks for the confirmation guys. Doug had the following questions that I would like to pass on to you guys:

"Can you ask somebody if we can just get the crush rings and use them on what
we have? I don't know if the head has to have the same recess as the
cylinders. Another question would be can we just use the flat gaskets on
the set up we currently have? It did look like the flat gasket would cover
the metal part even with the recess and seal."

The flat gaskets that he is referring to are the cylinder to case gaskets. I received 2 sets of 6 flat gaskets from Pelican in the engine gasket, so we'd have enough to make do if this is a viable solution.

[WERK I]

Originally Posted by polizei

Thanks for the confirmation guys. Doug had the following questions that I would like to pass on to you guys:

"Can you ask somebody if we can just get the crush rings and use them on what
we have? I don't know if the head has to have the same recess as the
cylinders. Another question would be can we just use the flat gaskets on
the set up we currently have? It did look like the flat gasket would cover
the metal part even with the recess and seal."

The flat gaskets that he is referring to are the cylinder to case gaskets. I received 2 sets of 6 flat gaskets from Pelican in the engine gasket, so we'd have enough to make do if this is a viable solution.

Definitely not. You should send the heads and cylinders out to EBS or somebody who does this type of work so the proper sized flame rings are used.

[onboost]

Originally Posted by WERK-I

Definitely not. You should send the heads and cylinders out to EBS or somebody who does this type of work so the proper sized flame rings are used.

+ 1 what he said!!

[les_garten]

Originally Posted by polizei

Thanks for the confirmation guys. Doug had the following questions that I would like to pass on to you guys:

"Can you ask somebody if we can just get the crush rings and use them on what
we have? I don't know if the head has to have the same recess as the
cylinders. Another question would be can we just use the flat gaskets on
the set up we currently have? It did look like the flat gasket would cover
the metal part even with the recess and seal."

The flat gaskets that he is referring to are the cylinder to case gaskets. I received 2 sets of 6 flat gaskets from Pelican in the engine gasket, so we'd have enough to make do if this is a viable solution.

Please don't take offense to the offending comment I am about to make...

You don't really want to do this as half ass as all your suggestions do you?

These cars are a pain to tear down and just the gasket costs alone are enough to deter screw-ups to most mortals.
It looks like you have two options.

1) Send the cylinders and heads off to get the grooves cut in the heads. They may not need the cylinders, who knows.
2) Buy new Cylinders and most likely Pistons

You can't use the cylinder base gaskets, they are copper and have cut-outs in them for the head studs, at least the one's I have used. If you use the C2 Gaskets, I think it is GUARANTEED to leak. Keep in mind that all these gasket solutions need to be done with proper machine work or they are WORSE than no gasket. It the C2 Gaskets are not cut right they leak, if the flame rings are not cut right they leak.

Trying to shortcut here, as in most Porsche things, will reap only grief and disappointment in the end.

[polizei]

Originally Posted by les_garten

Please don't take offense to the offending comment I am about to make...

You don't really want to do this as half ass as all your suggestions do you?

These cars are a pain to tear down and just the gasket costs alone are enough to deter screw-ups to most mortals.
It looks like you have two options.

1) Send the cylinders and heads off to get the grooves cut in the heads. They may not need the cylinders, who knows.
2) Buy new Cylinders and most likely Pistons

You can't use the cylinder base gaskets, they are copper and have cut-outs in them for the head studs, at least the one's I have used. If you use the C2 Gaskets, I think it is GUARANTEED to leak. Keep in mind that all these gasket solutions need to be done with proper machine work or they are WORSE than no gasket. It the C2 Gaskets are not cut right they leak, if the flame rings are not cut right they leak.

Trying to shortcut here, as in most Porsche things, will reap only grief and disappointment in the end.

None taken. I don't want to nor will I cut corners. This whole project has been quite a learning experience for me, not only in Porsches, but in cars in general. I'm just trying to explore all of the options and mitigate costs insomuch that is safe. If I had unlimited resources, this whole project would look a lot different. Thanks for your input.

Would there be any issue with keeping my pistons and getting a different set of 3.3L cylinders?

[les_garten]

Originally Posted by polizei

None taken. I don't want to nor will I cut corners. This whole project has been quite a learning experience for me, not only in Porsches, but in cars in general. I'm just trying to explore all of the options and mitigate costs insomuch that is safe. If I had unlimited resources, this whole project would look a lot different. Thanks for your input.

Would there be any issue with keeping my pistons and getting a different set of 3.3L cylinders?

Hi,
Have your Pistons Mic'd, you may be able to get away with that. Most buy them as a set though, Piston's and Cylinders.

[polizei]

I talked to Dave @ Road & Race, and when he found out about the situation he immediately offered to swap the cylinders & pistons out for another set. He wanted the pistons as well since it's a matched set. By the way, next to Ben, Dave has been one of the best guys to deal with during this project in terms of customer service.

[onboost]

+1 : Dave's a good guy.. helpful and always has a ton of parts!

Talked to him many times and finally got to meet-up with him this year up at the Hershey swap! I couldn't believe he came all the way out here from Cali.

Paul

[polizei]

If any of you guys have or know of an Andial Signal splitter for a Carrera for sale, I'd be interested in purchasing it. I'm thinking it'll be easier to run the wiring while the engine is out, rather than waiting for the winter.

[polizei]

Surprisingly, I already found an Andial splitter at a decent price!

It's my understanding that a twin plug ignition mitigates detonation and thus allows you to run higher compression and have a smoother running engine. It seems (please correct me if I'm wrong) like there is a common benefit between twin plugging and intercooling. If that is the case, can a twin plugged ignition supplement an intercooler up to a certain level of boost? It seems to be the common approach that when turbo charging a Carrera that an intercooler is necessary beyond a certain amount of boost (.5 BAR with stock 9.5:1 compression). I'm just wondering if your ignition were twin plugged and you had no intercooler if that would allow for higher boost levels before needing an intercooler.

I'm getting the feeling that someone is going to tear me up for this thought, but I'm used to it by now I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

[911st]

Andy, love what you are doing.

I am not an expert but I do not think you need twin plug on your turbo. Porsche did not do so on its 993 TT. With the flat top pistons the flame dose not have to travel over the piston and it has a very open path.

Once you come up on boost with all that fuel packed in there it wants to bury even faster. Than is why the timing must be backed off on turbos.

Twin plugging helps CIS turbos in that they have issue getting proper Air Fuel ratios and the twin plug helps them fire. With EFI you will not have that problem.

Just my opinion, that is another $1-2k that is not going to give you the payback. Also, you will need to get your chip set for it.

Where did you get your tube from turbo to intake?

[les_garten]

Originally Posted by 911st

Andy, love what you are doing.

I am not an expert but I do not think you need twin plug on your turbo. Porsche did not do so on its 993 TT. With the flat top pistons the flame dose not have to travel over the piston and it has a very open path.

Once you come up on boost with all that fuel packed in there it wants to bury even faster. Than is why the timing must be backed off on turbos.

Twin plugging helps CIS turbos in that they have issue getting proper Air Fuel ratios and the twin plug helps them fire. With EFI you will not have that problem.

Just my opinion, that is another $1-2k that is not going to give you the payback. Also, you will need to get your chip set for it.

Where did you get your tube from turbo to intake?

Respectfully, I have to disagree with you here. He doesn't have flat pistons as eveidenced by his CR he stated. Even if his pistons were flat, ala 3.3 turbo pistons, he would still need dual plugs. Gas just ain't the same as it used to be!! 97mm or so, is a big area to light from one offset plug. I say dual plug your motor and tune it like it was single plug'd. If anything, retard it a little. At 9.5 CR he needs dual plugging more than anybody else here. EFI does nothing to correct piss poor octane. You can run your AFR's down to 9:1 and it don't compensate for ***** fuel! ***** fuel is ***** fuel, no matter how rich it is. (Defined: ***** fuel is anything you buy at a gas station)

[polizei]

Originally Posted by 911st

Just my opinion, that is another $1-2k that is not going to give you the payback. Also, you will need to get your chip set for it.

Where did you get your tube from turbo to intake?

Over half the expense has already been realized as I've paid for the machining of my heads and the Andial splitter. I'm not very far away now, so I would like to go the distance with the twin plugging.

Ben @ M&K supplied the tubing. There should be a picture of it somewhere in this thread.

Originally Posted by les_garten

At 9.5 CR he needs dual plugging more than anybody else here. EFI does nothing to correct piss poor octane.

Actually, I am aiming at 8.0:1 - 8.5:1. I thought I was going to end up with 8.0:1, but I had to send those pistons back with the cylinders that were machined for flame rings. I'm waiting to hear from David to see what he can get me.

I am definitely on the same page concerning the unreliability of gas, but I'm wondering specifically if a twin plug ignition can substitute for an intercooler up to some level of boost?

[911st]

Again, I am not an expert. Just a cost v preceved benifit thing.

Twin Plugging offers big insurance in a normally asperated motor and w the gas were getting is a better idea more and more.

It sure can not hurt a turbo motor but I do not think it adds much in the way of insurance here as people seem to think. It is cool.

Usually, it dose not do much for a EFI low compression turbo motor from what I understand. It can add a small bit of additional torque on pre boost with the faster burn rate. Dose not contribute much of anything on boost interms of safety or power.

Again, this seems why Porsche did not put twin plugging on its 8/1 CR 993 TT motor even-though it already had twin plugging on the 964 NA motors. Same for their tt GT2 race motors I believe.

It is all good and better to have it than not. Just a dollars for benefit thing. Same money put on a good inter-cooler might creat more insurance / benifit.

Again, love what you are doing and considering the same.

[930gt-40r]

911St
I get what you are saying about the factory not using it on the TT, but it would be a sin not to at least drill the heads for twin plug while they were out of the car even if they werent going to be used immedeatly. I made that mistake when I did my heads origonally and up until I popped my motor I was kicking myself for not doing it. I agree with you about spending the money on a good intercooler, that is key- but I would drill the heads to keep the options open later.