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-   911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/)
-   -   Thought on this AFR graph? (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/401064-thought-afr-graph.html)

930chef 04-02-2008 04:21 PM

i have read lots of positive re: brian leask and adj wur. can someone turn me on to a web site for more info and how to purchase his equipment. thanks in advance kevin

patkeefe 04-02-2008 05:17 PM

Although I have a different application than a typical 930....3.0 Turbo SC, with the SC CIS system, I do have both the adjustable WUR and the RPM switch. I run a substantially lower boost level than most 930's; I run a Tial with 5.8 PSI spring. My AFR curve looked pretty much like the one posted by quicksilver77 (but my peak power is about what quicksilver makes at 5000). After the first dyno runs, I spoke with Brian, and opted to get the RPM switch.

I have tuned my WUR a lot, as it is a non-standard application. I was seeing basically 10:1 AFR's on the track last fall, but that may have been due to the fact that I fried my heating elements in the WUR (Brian has since repaired it...excellent customer service!!!). I also had massive air leaks in the system. I have found that the car seems to work well with the boost threshold closer to warm control pressure. I keep my warm pressure set up around 3.2 bar, and that will allow me to have non-boosted AFR's up around 13+, and it transitions to boost a lot better. It is a lot of time and tweaking to get it close, but it can be done, mostly.

The benefit of the RPM switch is that it will delay the massive fuel dump until the RPM switch is made, owing to the non-linearity of the WUR at the onset of boost (full throttle) enrichment. The control pressure drops pretty fast at this point, like the floor on a gallows. I view this as a clever work-around to the enrichment problem. I don't believe that over enrichment at threshold can be tuned out of the WUR completely. I have mine pretty close at the moment. So, to rarlyl8's point of the RPM switch being a band-aid, it can easily be used as that if one doesn't want to invest the time in the fine tuning of the WUR. I find it gets that last bit of adjustment in mid range pretty close.

I will have the car at the track Friday, and I'm curious to see how the winter's tweaking of the WUR works out. This is pretty much the sole purpose of going for one day, to shake out the fuel system. I'm hoping to see AFR's in the mid 12's at the track

JFairman 04-02-2008 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RarlyL8 (Post 3865230)
No, what I am saying is the RPM switch is a good bandaid but does not actually fix the problem, it masks the symptoms.

The problem is that as the WUR ages it goes off spec. In order to recalibrate you need to go inside the WUR and do some adjusting. Once back in spec you re-gain the full spectrum of the threshold adjustment.
The RPM switch simply delays the onset of boost by hiding the signal until a preset RPM, effectively overriding the threshold system by shifting the threshold to a point requiring less adjustment. The resulting A/F graph looks better but the WUR is still off spec.

I'll take the words of a very intelligent, and experienced mechanical engineer that knows alot more about 30 year old K-jetronic control pressure regulators than anyone on this forum.
The man I'm talking about is the very personable Brian Leask.
He modified my WUR a couple weeks ago and the machine work and 4 seperate adjustments he builds into it are very impressive.

I don't see how you could do what the rpm switch and air solenoid does with adjustments to the WUR.
If you could he would do it.

If you're so sure it can be done, lets see you do it. . . . . .

Craig 930 RS 04-02-2008 06:40 PM

bleask@cox.net

Suffice to say that the adj WUR/RPM combination results in the most accurate and 'easiest' fueling possible

I was impressed.........hell, my 930 goes like a bullet with no flat spots or problems - and no more black soot in the pipe.
She runs well -

RarlyL8 04-02-2008 08:46 PM

Quote:

I don't see how you could do what the rpm switch and air solenoid does with adjustments to the WUR.
If you could he would do it.
If you're so sure it can be done, lets see you do it. . . . . .
I'm sorry you can't see how it's done. I obviously can. And I'm sure Brian Leask can as well, why don't you ask him?.
BL also knows that the average customer will not want to spend the time it takes to fix and adjust their ailing WUR, which is where the RPM switch comes in. Great device for the masses, I already said that.

As far as calling me out is concerned, I most certainly don't have to exlpain anything to anybody. I do it because I like helping people. Rude statements like that are what run a lot of experienced folks off the boards.

Craig 930 RS 04-02-2008 08:57 PM

Gotta admit, I thought the same thing as Brian -

The:
"If you're so sure it can be done, lets see you do it. . . . . ."

is a bit abrasive.
We ARE trying to help and I think the combined knowledge of a few here can help folks out.....

Quicksilver77 04-03-2008 12:49 AM

So the Tial WG is about 7-10 days out, so since the car will be down anyway...
It seems like the perfect opportunity to pull The WUR and send it to Brian to make it adjustable. I really like the idea of being able to dial in my AFR's as compared to trusting the Andial enrichment system to basically keep my AFR's in check under high boost.
So I removed my airbox pulled the WUR, and did a little looking around.
I assume this is the Andial system plumbed in (thanks 356-930 for the description) with it's two prong connector.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207206078.jpg

Since I will be using the adj. WUR I will not be utilizing the Andial system, I will be removing the andial items, and returning the fuel plumbing back to stock-ish. My question: is the wire my hand is on, part of the andial system? It plugs into the intercooler at either the boost pressure or overboost valve (to be honest I could not tell the difference if my life depended on it). Thought I would check before I started tearing wires out!

Next:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207208804.jpg

I found this short hose with a bolt jammed in the open end, it is damp to the touch with oil... everything else is dry. It is at the base of where the Intercooler connects to the throttle body? Don't know if that is the proper terminology or not.
What is/was this line for? Is there a way to plug it in a cleaner fashion?

Finally:
Since everything was off it seemed like a good time to inspect the spark plugs... Famous last words! "F" spark plugs!!! I can't wait for the valve adjustment!!! After an hour of wriggling around in the engine compartment I had all the plugs out. Guess what... they are black and covered with soot... Big surprise I know, but at least they were all roughly the same... with the exception of the plug which was less than finger tight, it was blacker than most with the soot working its way up the threads toward the porcelain, to be expected, I guess, since it was only hanging on by a thread or two.
The last surprise was that I had 5 Bosch plugs and one NGK... Go figure on that one??

That is the update for the night!
Thanks for all your help!

RarlyL8 04-03-2008 04:59 AM

Quote:

This is the message that was sent by JFairman:
***************
Hahahaha
you can't explain your talk because thats all it is... BS egocentric
talk.
***************
What kind of crap is this to send me a caustic PM? Are you 12?
Do a search before you open your mouth. I HAVE done everything I say and can share it with whoever I wish.

icemann427 04-03-2008 06:16 PM

You're not being Fair-man, and you don't need to be a dick just because someone doesn't 100% agree with you. I've only been on this forum for about 4 months, but Rarly contributes more help on here than anybody else during that time...We're all on the same team if you haven't quite figured that out.

Sean, if you take a couple of more pictures of your whole Andial unit installation, I can probably figure out where that wire goes by looking at mine. Also, if no one soon knows where that vacuum hose goes off the top of their head, I'll look on mine...But I think I have to take the IC off to see it for you.

And...You were able to take out your spark plugs in one hour???!!! Heck man, it took me 6 hours to change my g*d blessed plugs. I guess I need a different tool! Or more mechanical dexterity.

Geoff

JFairman 04-03-2008 08:00 PM

That vacuum hose was hooked up to an air solenoid that controlled the diverter valve that sent air from the air pump to the exhaust ports for EPA mandated emission control.
If that stuff is removed you can use it for whatever you want or plug it.

With a longer hose it would work well for a vacuum inspired seafoam/techron/marvel mystery oil treatment if you want to try that.

Quicksilver77 04-03-2008 09:44 PM

JFairman: Tempting as the "a vacuum inspired seafoam/techron/marvel mystery oil treatment " sounds...:D
I may just go with a good old fashioned plug!
Brian Leask will have my WUR in his hot little hands for the WUR Modification and the RPM switch... I can't wait!

Rarly: Keep us posted on the WUR mods I would love to gain a better understanding of how those things work and how modifications are done to achieve the "perfect" AFR graph!

356-930 04-04-2008 09:20 AM

1) I assume this is the Andial system plumbed in with it's two prong connector.
2) My question: is the wire my hand is on, part of the andial system?
3) After an hour of wriggling around in the engine compartment I had all the plugs out.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207206078.jpg

1) Yes, the photo shows the Andial Modulator Valve and its two prong electrical connector.
2) The white wire in your hand is most likely the boost sensor's positive lead. Find the Andial control electronics (possibly under the driver seat) and check the resistance from that white wire's connector with an ohmeter to the white wire in the Andial control electronics. Should be 0-ohms.
3) An hour to change plugs? I'm lucky if I can do a change in 2-days as I can only get to 4-plugs with the engine in the car.
Keep us posted.

Quicksilver77 04-09-2008 08:42 PM

So I know that there are a number of you out there who have had your cars torn apart for months... perhaps years....

How the heck do you deal with it????
I wake up daily hoping for Santa to show up with his big brown truck and bring my:
Adjustable WUR: THANKS to Brian Leask!
and my
Tail Wastegate: THANKS to Ben at MK Exhaust!

It is killing me! The weather here is perfect! All I can do is walk out and look longingly into the garage... where the beast awaits...
in pieces! :(
That is my rant for the night! I'll keep you posted!

JFairman 04-09-2008 08:59 PM

LOL...
Well, I just got mine started around 10:30 tonight.
It's been on jackstands for a few weeks while I did a whole bunch of things... including upgrading the entire AC system.

It was too late to do more than hear it start and shut it off with neighbors close by...

Yeah.. I'm looking forward to just driving it again instead of working on it.
There is alot of satisfaction in doing the work and knowing it's good, and saving money at the same time.

Quicksilver77 04-19-2008 08:36 PM

The Install... and a bit bummed!
 
So the Tial Wastegate is here and installed w/o drama...
The Leask WUR and RPM CSV are here and installed w/o too much headache (splicing into a factory system is a frightening proposition for me) but it is done as well. The install instructions are stellar, and super easy to follow, really well done!

Everything is re-installed and ready to roll...

Moment of truth...

No dice! The first time she turned over, she wanted to start... After that... Nothing! Why is it that I can never get my projects to work on the first attempt? So I pulled a plug wire and and pushed a spare plug in to check for spark. Good to go!

So then I started to trace the fuel. I have fuel through the WUR...
Mystified, because those were the only items I molested... I pulled the IC off to get a better view of things and tried turning the car over, she roared to life and then died in the matter of a second or two.

I tried it again, and the same result.

Strange I thought... I re installed the IC and tried turning her over again... Nothing doing! Didn't even TRY to start! Just the sound of the fuel pumps running and the started doing it's job!

Again, I am kind of a noob, I am sorry I am ignorant! What are your thoughts? What information can I give you to help me get my head around this?
Why would having the IC effect the system one way or the other?

I was really hopping for a turn key install! :(
Followed by some AFR/Dyno tuning time... Maybe the next project! ;)

RarlyL8 04-19-2008 08:51 PM

Is your cold pressure in spec?

Quicksilver77 04-19-2008 09:05 PM

that was my initial thought as well believe it or not, and it was set to 2.2bar at 20*C. Since I do not have a CIS pressure gauge at the moment, I thought well; I could let the system warm until the cold pressure system is not a factor. So I waited the perscribed 5-10 minutes for the wur to warm, and tried again, still no dice.

From B. Leask:
Cold Control Pressure: 2.2Bar
Warm Control Pressure: 3.75Bar
Enrichment Pressure: 2.3Bar

RarlyL8 04-19-2008 09:20 PM

I would start by getting a gage on and verifying the cold pressure. I know BL set it already but I wouldn't go disturbing things until you know where you are.
You might double check that your intercooler and throttle body O-ring didn't get squished when you did the intercooler R&R.
Also - the rpm switch plugs into your vac ports. Check them for leaks as well. Maybe a hose blew off.

RarlyL8 04-19-2008 09:35 PM

Quote:

I could let the system warm until the cold pressure system is not a factor. So I waited the perscribed 5-10 minutes for the wur to warm, and tried again, still no dice.
If I understand what you did there I'm afraid it doesn't work that way.

The cold pressure setting will enrich the mixture when cold and leans out as the temperature rises. If the bimetal strip is allowed to warm up while the engine is off the mixture will continue to lean while the engine still needs it to be rich in order to start.
When checking your cold pressure or making changes with the engine off it is best to unplug the WUR so the unit stays cold.
Let it go bone cold and try agin in the morning.

Quicksilver77 04-19-2008 09:44 PM

The IC O-rings are in good shape, as are the vac lines for the CSV. Pelican has the Bosch CIS Tester, is this the tool I need to perform the pressure test, or will any fuel pressure gauge work, I think most use a schrader valve fitting for gauge access to fuel pressure???


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