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MSD ignition upgrade on 930. How to?

I want to upgrade the ignition on my 930 with an MSD box. What are the ins and outs of this upgrade?

Do I need to modify the distributor at all? Does the vacuum line stay connected?

Has anyone written a FAQ or DIY install guide for this upgrade?

Is this the correct unit? http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_7_6462.htm
Old 07-04-2008, 07:41 PM
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Check out this thread
how much turbo lag is normal.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
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Old 07-05-2008, 03:25 AM
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to be clear this is not an upgrade really. I run dual 6al's on mine out of necessity for my 12 plug dizzy and custom wiring harness. But should you choose to ditch the very high quality bosch unit it is pretty simple. no need for removing vacum lines etc just follow whats laid out in the threads and you will be fine
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Old 07-05-2008, 07:45 AM
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I am just about to sell my (new in original packing) MSD 6AL, matching MSD Blaster Coil, new Brian Leask RPM Controlled solenoid valve kit. All of these are never installed, brand new items and will be sold for 75% of cost including shipping anywhere in the continental US.
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Last edited by GaryR; 07-05-2008 at 10:31 AM..
Old 07-05-2008, 08:04 AM
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It's pretty simple to install. The hardest part is locating everything.

Here's some question and answer info I got from Steve Weiner who owns Rennsport Systems:

You'll need the tach adapter if you want to keep the stock tach (at least I did. Others say no).

QUESTION: I'm installing an MSD 6AL in my '87 930 and have a question about the wiring. Here goes:

1- The large red wire goes to the battery or Positive lug on the starter solenoid.
2- The large black wire goes to ground.
3- The small orange wire goes to the Positive side of the coil.
4- The small black wire goes to the Negative side of the coil.
5- The small red wire goes to switched Pos.
5- The white wire is used to trigger a MSD shift light.
6- The violet wire?
7- The green wire?

Since the Turbo uses a magnetic pick up type distributor, my question is which wire does the MSD violet wire connect to and which wire does the MSD green wire connect to coming out of the distributor? Or does it even matter which one I connect to?

ANSWER: You are right in that the violet & green wires conduct the trigger voltage to the MSD. This is phase sensitive and must be connected correctly otherwise the car will not start or run poorly. Connect the green wire to the center conductor and violet wire to the shield.

I didn't want to cut any of my harness up, so I unplugged the wiring harness off the CD and connected my wires there (the ones from the distributor).

NOTES: In addition, to make the tach work correctly, the tach adapter is used and:
1- The red wire is to switched Pos.
2- The black wire is to ground.
3- The white wire goes to the tach output on the MSD unit itself.
4- The violet wire is run to the tach input (the purple and black wire by the CD unit).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Compulsive View Post
I want to upgrade the ignition on my 930 with an MSD box. What are the ins and outs of this upgrade?

Do I need to modify the distributor at all? Does the vacuum line stay connected?

Has anyone written a FAQ or DIY install guide for this upgrade?

Is this the correct unit? http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_7_6462.htm
Old 07-06-2008, 05:22 PM
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I should back up a step.

Does one benefit from the installation of an MSD system on a 400hp CIS 930?

Are distributor mods suggested or just leave the old one alone?

The goal is to make good power, improve the off-boost power and make sure the mixture is ignited well at high RPM and boost
Old 07-17-2008, 08:11 PM
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I put one in a carb'd 914 and definitely had all the spark I could ever need. Supposedly the Bosch CDI is pretty good and the only reason to go MSD is if the original fails and you don't want to spend crazy money replacing it. Remember though... the MSD in the name stands for multiple spark discharge. Some will argue it is like twin plugging your engine... I will not. But it will fire the spark every time.
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Old 07-17-2008, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Compulsive View Post
Does one benefit from the installation of an MSD system on a 400hp CIS 930?
Are distributor mods suggested or just leave the old one alone?
The goal is to make good power, improve the off-boost power and make sure the mixture is ignited well at high RPM and boost
The MSD ignition systems will improve engine performance of the 930 over the stock CDI in two ways. One, below 3000 rpm it fires the plugs twice for each combustion cycle thus keeping the plugs clean. Two, they give added control of timing. Depending on which controller is installed, various levels of control of timing are available.
The MSD with controller modules facilitate greater initial timing which helps wake up low rpm performance then facilitates retard of timing at higher rpm and boost (to prevent detonation and destruction).
MSD ignition systems arranged from greatest to least control:
MSD 6AL Ignition with MSD 8977 Controller
MSD 6AL Ignition with MSD 8762 Controller
MSD 6462 Integrated Ignition and Controller
MSD 6AL Ignition

The below listed MSD parts and links should be studied to determine which system will best suit your needs:
MSD 6420 (6AL) Ignition http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_6_6420.htm
MSD 8762 Boost Retard Controller http://www.msdignition.com/tc_19.htm
MSD 6462 Ignition with built in Boost Control http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_7_6462.htm
MSD 8977 Multi Function Ignition Controller http://www.msdignition.com/htmlhelp/8977.html
Old 07-18-2008, 08:43 AM
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Our knock controller was just upgraded and includes an output to drive the Bosch CDI.

A "Twin Plug" option is also available, allowing you to drive both coils directly. No CDI boxes required. The ignition output features "constant energy" dwell control, similar to later Bosch inductive systems.

The system includes two rev limiters, boost retard, nitrous retard, cranking retard, and individual cylinder knock retard.


Old 07-18-2008, 03:55 PM
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I think that the best way to sell that would be to tell us that it is a direct replacement (form, fit and function) for the Bosch CDI... including the 6 pin stock connector. Otherwise you might have to show us a wiring diagram
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Old 07-18-2008, 05:05 PM
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Oh yeah... if I an adjusting a pot to control rev limit, how exactly do I do that? Rev the crap out of the car and hope that I don't overshoot or are there some number of "clicks" to the left and the right?
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Old 07-18-2008, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 356-930 View Post
...

The below listed MSD parts and links should be studied to determine which system will best suit your needs:
MSD 6420 (6AL) Ignition http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_6_6420.htm
MSD 8762 Boost Retard Controller http://www.msdignition.com/tc_19.htm
MSD 6462 Ignition with built in Boost Control http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_7_6462.htm
MSD 8977 Multi Function Ignition Controller http://www.msdignition.com/htmlhelp/8977.html
Very helpful post

I am still a bit fuzzy on how it would all tie into the car.

From the links you provided the MSD 6462 would appear to be the best choice for a mild six plug 930. It gives good a spark, rev limiter and built in boost retard. Am I correct?

How does this work with the 930's distributor? You somehow adjust the MSD box to advance the timing over and above the factory setting before boost sets in? While in boost the distributor is trying to advance the spark and the MSD is trying to retard it

How does one connect and install all of the MSD parts? What original 930 parts are removed when doing the MSD upgrade?

Sorry if I am a little slow to catch on
Old 07-18-2008, 06:32 PM
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Stock CDI= over priced garbage- use it as a paper weight.
You could use MSD, accel, Mallory, etc... Some people dont like MSD because of reliability issues (I have never had a problem) and some swear by it. I currenlty run the Accel 300 unit in my car and it works well even under high boost. But the way I look at it- you could buy every one of the above systems to try in your car before spending half the cost of a new factory unit. My old CIS motor loved the MSD 6AL that I gave it..... Driveability, performance, and hell- even emissions (not like I care anyway). It certainly started easier and never fouled a plug after. Instalation is not that bad
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Old 07-18-2008, 06:34 PM
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Rev limits and boost retard settings are made with the aid of test points on the front panel. For example, to set a 6350 RPM limit, adjust the knob until the corresponding test point reads 6.35 volts. This can be done with key on, or engine running.

The boost retard "Start" and "Rate" settings are adjusted similarly. The boost retard "start" point can be set from 0 to 10 psi. If you have determined that you don't need boost retard until 6.5 psi, adjust the start knob so its test point reads 6.5 volts. The "Rate" knob adjusts how many degrees retard per psi (beyond the start point). The range is 0 to 2 per psi. For 1.25 degree retard per psi, adjust the knob until the test point reads 1.25 volts.

With 15 psi and the above settings, boost retard would begin at 6.5 psi. Total retard at 15 psi would be (15-6.5)*1.25=10.6, but software rounds it up to 11.

The first system shipped last week for use on a twin plug car, equipped with a MoTeC. I haven't finished the other drawings yet, but the unit can trigger from the stock magnetic pickup, and output an ac signal to the magnetic trigger input of the Bosch CDI. Basically, cut the stock magnetic trigger cable and connect the unit between the cut ends.

Note that the Bosch CDI makes spark on the falling edge of the magnetic pickup signal. Mode switches on the front panel let you select input and output trigger polarity.

Old 07-18-2008, 10:08 PM
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That's pretty cool John
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 07-19-2008, 03:14 AM
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Thanks Nathan.

The unit went to a shop in Hong Kong, and it's been a couple days since I heard from them. Last message was they were ready to take it out on the road. No news is usually good news.
Old 07-19-2008, 03:54 AM
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Very cool and awesome description. Only question I have is that your pin out drawing seems to be different than the photo of the actual product you have pictured. I only ask because I used to run an R&D group at an aerospace company and many times got talked into buying hardware that did not really quite work or have all the manuals written. Fun for my guys to play with but always took ten times longer cause nothing matched or did what it was supposed to... the developers always seemed to have a stack of notes somewhere that were better than any other documentation.
So with this box, you get the function of the ignition box as well as the knock retard / timing control?
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Old 07-19-2008, 05:58 AM
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1) System ground

2) Switched 12v from key (for example, coil positive)

3) Aux: For twin plug version, connect to coil negative of one coil. Otherwise, this is a low current 12v tach output. Could be used to trigger the MSD "Points" wire.

4) Coil-: Coil negative. Must use this output for single coil systems. Dwell control software senses coil current from this coil.

5) DigIn: Logic level trigger (5v or 12v trigger is ok)

6) Pts: Points trigger

7) MagOut: Magnetic output trigger, could be used to trigger magnetic input wires on CDI systems.

8) StgLim: Staging rev limit is selected when 12v is applied.

9) NitRet: Nitrous retard is activated when 12v is applied.

10) MagIn+: Magnetic input trigger signal wire.

11) Gnd: Magnetic input trigger negative, knock sensor negative. Install second ground wire when driving two coils.

12) KnkSnsr: Signal wire from knock sensor.

At the selected limit, software fires three cylinders, skips two, and repeats the pattern. This cycles the misfiring cylinders, preventing plug fouling. If the engine goes 100 RPM above the selected limit, software skips as many cylinders as needed.

For 4, 5, and 8 cylinder operation, software fires two and skips one. Can't use this on a six cylinder, as it would skip the same two cylinders, fouling the plugs.

Pin 1 of the main connector is at the lower left of this photo.



Old 07-19-2008, 07:42 AM
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Very cool. How many boards have you spun and assembled (looks like a custom board with SMT bits and pieces)? Did you just do the one or did you put a few together?
So I could take out my Bosch unit (CIS injection) and install this baby in its place. Do you do any fancy tricks like multiple spark discharge at lower RPMs?
Wow... we totally jacked this thread! Sorry Compulsive...
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Old 07-19-2008, 07:58 AM
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Had maybe 80 printed. I've put a few together.

About 170 parts, takes me about three hours each if I unplug the phone and stay offline.

Screen the solder paste, manual pick and place using magnifying glasses, then into the toaster oven for a few minutes.
Old 07-19-2008, 08:34 AM
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