Do you know Haltech?

[thechiller]

I'm upgrading my Porsche 911. The car have 930 engine, it is a aircooled flat six 3.3 liter turbo engine. Originaly it have 300 hp. Since im doing a total upgrade my engine should make minimum 550 hp, the limitation is now only the turbo size. With my set up it should be possible to reach 748 hp, but i will start with 550 hp. If you know Porsche the upgrades that have been done on the 930 engine is 964 turbo cyllinders, carrera 3.2 cyllinder head, Carrera 3.2 intake plenum, Carrera 3.2 camshafts, Dansk headers, K27 Hyflow turbo, Custom exhaust, water cooled intercooler system, etc.

And of course Haltech EMS, im using an E6X, since i have never before used Haltech i have some beginner problems. I did manage to start the car, but since i don't understand some settings the engine run extreemly erratically, boom, boom, bang

I'm running with only cranc sensor and going for the waist spark ignition config. Since Porsche have firing order 1-6-2-4-3-5 and Haltech have firing order 1-5-3-6-2-4 I have connected
coil 1 to cyllinder 1
coil 5 to cyllinder 6
coil 3 to cyllinder 2
coil 6 to cyllinder 4
coil 2 to cyllinder 3
coil 4 to cyllinder 5
Is this correct?

Please bellow is a picture that show exact how the trigger sensor is placed, I need some help with the settings in Ignition Set-up and Trigger setup



Trigger Angel °BTDC = ?
Tooth Offset = ?
Lock Timing = ?
Number of Teeth = 36x2 = 72?


The porsche engine should originaly have ignition timing:
29° before TDC at 4000 rpm (with vacuum hose disconnected)
0°- 3° at idle speed of 950 rpm (vacuum hose connected)

Here is me and my fantastic car

Cheers
K Robert
Stavanger, Norway

[TunersGroup]

Originally Posted by thechiller

I'm running with only cranc sensor and going for the waist spark ignition config. Since Porsche have firing order 1-6-2-4-3-5 and Haltech have firing order 1-5-3-6-2-4 I have connected
coil 1 to cyllinder 1
coil 5 to cyllinder 6
coil 3 to cyllinder 2
coil 6 to cyllinder 4
coil 2 to cyllinder 3
coil 4 to cyllinder 5
Is this correct?

You should definitely check with Haltech on this. They are based here in Australia.

You can find their phone number here ...

http://www.haltech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=36&Itemid=8

Originally Posted by thechiller

Here is me and my fantastic car

Wow ! What a great project car !

The concept of high horsepower in an early RS style body reminds me of the Australian supercharged 911 owned by a friend of mine here in Sydney ...







There are some videos of it hunting GT3's here ...

http://www.tunersgroup.com/Videos/Supercharged_911.html

- Adam

[thechiller]

I tried the Haltech.com forum, but none replies so far. I just copied the same to this forum, I just have to wait...

Thanks

Cheers
K Robert

[zcoker]

The tooth offset is no greater than the number of teeth on the wheel. Trigger angle is usually 70-75 BTDC. Everything is based on a locked timing value of 10 degrees. Just remember that the rising and falling edge of the trigger can change the values. The trigger "gains" can reduce a lot of trigger noise. Use a timing light with the plugs out to dial everything in before you even attempt to start the engine. Don't forget to uncheck the lock timing box.

[911nut]

Where's TimT when you need him?

[TimT]

Need some more information...

What kind of coils are you using?

And to preface this a bit we don't usually use missing tooth wheels for triggers on Haltech installs.. we use magnets, like this...

Trigger wheel showing where it is drilled to glue and stake a magnet



crank pulley and trigger wheel assembled



Are you using coils similar to these?



You need to make sure the initial set up of the Haltech is correct.... You mention in your post that you have six coils? Is your engine twin plug?

When you set up a six cylinder engine for waste spark.. the ECU produces three ignition event per revolution.. on our Porsche engines.. with missing tooth wheel.. The missing tooth is "home" or "sync" then the ECU starts calculating the ignition or injection event 120 degrees from the missing tooth.. and this will fire cyl 1 & 4 in a waste spark set up..

So:

After your ECU sees the missing tooth... it will provide three ignition pulses per revolution..( which is why you need to provide trigger offset.. we can get to this later)

Ign 1 should fire coil for cylinder 1 and 4
Ign 2 should fire coil for cylinder 3 and 6
Ign 3 should fire coil for cylinder 2 and 5

I need to know more info regarding which coils you are using, etc..

[TimT]

The tooth offset is no greater than the number of teeth on the wheel. Trigger angle is usually 70-75 BTDC. Everything is based on a locked timing value of 10 degrees. Just remember that the rising and falling edge of the trigger can change the values. The trigger "gains" can reduce a lot of trigger noise. Use a timing light with the plugs out to dial everything in before you even attempt to start the engine. Don't forget to uncheck the lock timing box.

Missed this reply... it is correct.

[thechiller]

Hi


Actualy I have three coils and each coil have two outputs. So it's the output no that i have written down.

coil 1 to cyllinder 1 & 4
coil 2 to cyllinder 3 & 6
coil 3 to cyllinder 2 & 5
conected to output 1-2-3

I'm using signal on falling edge

you can see my engine project here

Watercooled intercooler system on aircooled 911


Cheers
K Robert

[JohnJL]

Oh goody goody. This is good stuff. My experience with Haltech was great service but terrible reliability. My interest is piqued here.

[JohnJL]

Originally Posted by TimT

Missed this reply... it is correct.

What do you mean here? 75 degrees is about twice what a normal max advance would be (~35 degrees btdc.) How does 75 degrees relate to the ignition cycle when EDIS is involved?

[TimT]

What do you mean here?

Look at the picture of the missing tooth wheel





The offset isnt ignition advance, its the angle between the trigger sensor, and tdc..The ecu fires the first cylinder in the firing order after the missing tooth passes the sensor..in this case the next cylinder would be 6, so you need offset so it will be cylinder 1 that fires.

The missing tooth passes the sensor, then the ecu counts teeth until the missing tooth is at tdc, and fires cyllinder 1.

Once the offset is establlished, and the relationship between the trigger position and tdc, you can then set the ignition advance tables.


clear as mud

[thechiller]

Originally Posted by TimT

Look at the picture of the missing tooth wheel





The offset isnt ignition advance, its the angle between the trigger sensor, and tdc..The ecu fires the first cylinder in the firing order after the missing tooth passes the sensor..in this case the next cylinder would be 6, so you need offset so it will be cylinder 1 that fires.

The missing tooth passes the sensor, then the ecu counts teeth until the missing tooth is at tdc, and fires cyllinder 1.

Once the offset is establlished, and the relationship between the trigger position and tdc, you can then set the ignition advance tables.


clear as mud

Thanks Tim

So on my set up the tooth offset should be 6 or 7 should i count the missing tooth?
The trigger edge is set to falling signal

What is correct Trigger Angel °BTDC = ?

Cheers
Kjell Robert

[zcoker]

Like it was said, we don't usually use missing tooth wheels on Haltechs....a lot of problems. Three rare earth magnets on the pulley 120 degrees apart. 10 degree mark on pulley next to TCD mark. 70-75 degrees is where you position the sensor @TCD, and is also the point whereat you phase the pulley with the magnets. Lock timing at 10 degrees and then use a timing light and change the trigger angles to bring in that 10 degree mark with the light. Ignitior type is important, raising or falling edge, constant duty, percent switch....whatever u do, don't even attempt to start the motor until you have the timing locked in at the 10 degree value else you could damage the motor if you have it out of phase. The lock timing function is used to let you know that the ecu is in sinc with your hardware setup and thus calibrated. The most important advice here is to read the manual and re-read the manual, as it has all the necessary information to setup the Haltech system correctly.

[TimT]

What you need to do to set the ignition is hook up a timing light on cyl 1.. go to the fuel set up page, and turn off the injectors...

Lock the timing on the ignition page.. and (plugs out is better) crank the engine and check to see where the tdc mark is....

you adjust that by changing the number in trigger offset... when the timing marks are aligned...

unlock the timing in ignition set up... and proceed to the next steps of tuning your engine..

[thechiller]

Tim

thanks for the help, i finally found out how it works. You are correct about the mulititooth wheel, the signal i receive is uneaven. Last night i started the car.

I trierd yo locked the timing at 0 deg and it was perfect, today i tried the same but now the timing was around 15 deg advanced, and no settings was changed.

So i think i order the magnets.

Wher can i order a coil package as you have on the picture, including ignition module and magnets?

Cheers
Kjell

Originally Posted by TimT

Need some more information...

What kind of coils are you using?

And to preface this a bit we don't usually use missing tooth wheels for triggers on Haltech installs.. we use magnets, like this...

Trigger wheel showing where it is drilled to glue and stake a magnet



crank pulley and trigger wheel assembled



Are you using coils similar to these?



You need to make sure the initial set up of the Haltech is correct.... You mention in your post that you have six coils? Is your engine twin plug?

When you set up a six cylinder engine for waste spark.. the ECU produces three ignition event per revolution.. on our Porsche engines.. with missing tooth wheel.. The missing tooth is "home" or "sync" then the ECU starts calculating the ignition or injection event 120 degrees from the missing tooth.. and this will fire cyl 1 & 4 in a waste spark set up..

So:

After your ECU sees the missing tooth... it will provide three ignition pulses per revolution..( which is why you need to provide trigger offset.. we can get to this later)

Ign 1 should fire coil for cylinder 1 and 4
Ign 2 should fire coil for cylinder 3 and 6
Ign 3 should fire coil for cylinder 2 and 5

I need to know more info regarding which coils you are using, etc..

[TimT]

If you go with magnets, you need to use a different sensor.... and you will need 4 magnets...one you mount south pole... the other three amounted north pole..

South is the home or sync.. the north's are the trigger events..

Wher can i order a coil package as you have on the picture, including ignition module and magnets?

We build that coil board in the picture in house.... for projects..

Always included in the projects cost..

The coils cost $38 ea (USD)
Ignition Modules are I think $150 ea
Then making the wiring harness..
and make the alum plate it all mounts too..

I recommend you diy...

[thechiller]

I'm a fast Internet shopper, i already ordered coils and magnets

6ea Haltech LS1 coils, with internal ignition modules.

What is the correct resistance in the plug connector when using these coils? I have plug connectors with 1KΩ and some with 3KΩ what is the correct one to use?
I have seen that many cars have plug connector with much higher KΩ value up to 24KΩ, why this resistance?

Cheers
Kjell Robert

[thechiller]

Hi




Tim T
You are correct, the motoronic system with haltech works bad, i had only sporadic sparks on the two cyllinders in the middle (ignition 3). Therefore i gave up this trigger wheel and i'm making one in aluminium


I found out about the coils. Haltech LS1 coils should have:
Setup as constant charge, falling edge output and a charge time of approx 4.5ms.


I have a question. What Haltech sensor should i use? there are two types of sensors one black one and one grey one, i have them both.

The black sensor (S3) is for "suitable for all engines except odd-fire engines"


The grey sensor (S4) "suitable for odd-fire engines"


Cheers
Kjell Robert

[TimT]

Use the S4 sensor, with the magnets set as in the picture you posted...

Three north magnets at 120 degree, one south magnet

We have many engines running Haltech with this trigger set up.

[thechiller]

Tim

Here you can see how my sensor was mounted, do you think this position will be will be ok for for the S4 sensor too?



do you have a picture where you use to place them?




Cheers
Kjell Robert