Supercharged motor is alive!

[JohnJL]

Originally posted in the main forum, thought this might hold some interest for those who stick mainly to this forum...

http:forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=444521&page=6



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfFUSVXLy7A

[mppickett]

Sounds great, John! It is going to be a monster at 2000 rpm and Katie bar the door after that.

[JohnJL]

Thanks Mike, we'll find out just how much Wednesday night...had some fun with the EDIS setup but the twin coils looks like Medusa with all those leads cascading down off the firewall support.

Having cut an access panel into the firewall has proved invaluable in getting everything installed. Sure makes it loud in the cockpit when the panel is off, no air filter, the throttle body is open and its revving up!

[gsmith660]

Wow that sounds great need another movie for the first drive.

[930gt-40r]

That sounds bad@ss! should be a blast to drive and with all of that nice hardware will never get boring to look at

[sjf911]

Awesome!

[spence88mph]

Great work John!!!

[wcc]

That's SWEET! Great Job! I bet you can't wait to drive it. Let us know how it is when you do...

[JBL930]

Great project!!

[JohnJL]

Had a hugely frustrating night at the dyno. On the plus side...
1. Motor held together, idles find and revs easily. Sounds great.
2. The belts run perfectly, no issues there. They are not slipping.
3. Temps are as expected, intakes never got over 34 degrees C.
4. A/F ratios between 12-13 all the way up.
5. Behaves as-expected up to 3500rpm. Builds 11 pounds of boost up to there.

Now the disappointing parts...I may have more than one problem, appreciate any suggestions;

1. Boost flatlines at 10-11 psi. In fact it hits 11 at 3000 then falls back to 10psi all the way to 6000 rpm.

2. Even at 3000 rpm and 10psi I'm not making the power I would expect. I'm getting 230 ft-lbs and 160 hp at the wheels. Torque goes straight up from 1100 rpm idle to 3000. Those figures flatline at 3500 rpm.

Here's what we've done/observed...

1. Those measurements were verified several times in several consecutive runs. Boost & AFR readings were consistent across the ECU, dash gauge and Dyno sensors.

2. We disconnected the bypass valve and verified it wasnt leaking.

3. There appear to be no leaks. If there were we would have expected different behaviors.

4. Spark is consistent throughout. Adjusting dwell time had no impact.

5. I've spoken to the supercharger dealer. At 6000 crank rpm the s/c is turning at 12,000. This is well below the s/c's stated limit. He also had no theories or suggestions.

6. The only thing we could not verify (due to time) was cam timing. I'll do that Monday. They are DC-20 cams from John Dougherty. I spoke with John and he endorsed these for this application...here are the stats...

DURATIONS .040" .050" VALVE LIFT CENTERLINE SETTING
DC 20 I 248 242 .475" 113 2.3 mm
Super-C2 E 236 230 .455"

A little video for infotainment...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vltwbhvCnms



Anyone else think cam timing could be the culprit or any other suggestions?

[beepbeep]

How much ignition advance are you running troughout the range on boost? Is engine twin plugged?

Max torque at 3000 RPM indicates relatively mild cams. I would check cam timing. Can you post the dyno sheet?

[JohnJL]

Hi Goran,

We had 18 degrees in, but we stopped adding in ignition since even at 4000 rpm with 10 lbs boost ignition wasnt going to come up with another 100 hp we expected at that point. Yes, its twin-plugged.

We didnt save the runs, we probably should have but they were so depressing.

[TimT]

If you set the cams to specified timing, changes in cam timing just moves your power band around...advance the timing and power comes in earlier, retard the timing power comes in higher at higher rpms ( I may have this backward.. I do get confused sometimes)

From the set up on the vids the looks like tuner knows what he is doing.. just wondering what iterations he is using when tuning your engine..

And one thing I notice where is the dyno? You can tune all you want in no load areas of the maps...this is the most coarse of tuning baselines..

You need to drive the car against something... ie drive it on a dyno and apply some load, make the engine work...

[JohnJL]

Tim,
Yeah, I agree about advancing or retarding to tune the powerband, what I seem to be grasping at is it possible to eliminate cams as the problem? Or if anyone had mistimed their cams and found similar symptoms (inability to boost beyond 10 psi, low power for 10psi) or are there other things that could be wrong. Is it possible to get the cams wrong enough to get those results but still not get any valve/piston interference?

That video was from our initial idle tuning. On the Dyno Dynamics dyno he was using the wireless pda to crank up the roller resistence.

[beepbeep]

Check if other row of plugs is firing. If not, 18 deg is quite mellow advance on single plug and you will get low power. You probably checked, but is 0 degree really 0 degree? Checked with strobe <-> crank pulley and all?

If plugs & ignition is fine, look into cam timing.

[mppickett]

The low boost numbers sound like a slipping belt unless you need a smaller pulley on the blower. I guess it is possible that you've got a loose clamp on an intake hose. At your current PSI though, you should be making more power. I agree with Goran, since your A/F ratios are good, I'm betting ignition or cam timing.

[JohnJL]

Goran,
Your remarks are insightful as always. the 456 cam was out by 0.5MM. the 123 was spot on.

We only have 2 hose clamps, on the intake to the IC. They are tight. The intercooler exhaust side to the intake manifold uses Mark Hargett's QDC. They are supposed to be good to 100 psi. We dont have a smoke machine handy to check.

You are also right that the TDC mark on the crank was wrong...8 degrees retarded.

The spark map I have now is all over the page. I am up for putting in time to develop it but would be very glad for some guidance on starting points...for guys running 10-15lbs boost, where are you setting idle timing, when do you start ramoing up timing, and where/what is your max advance?

My map now starts at about 12 degrees at idle and progresses to 22 degrees. However it has lots of funny points like 36 degrees at high rpm/low load. And 10 degrees at high rpm and 220 kpa.

A cut/past graphical image of someone's map would be very highly appreciated!

Thanks again Goran, Tim, Mike, Jonathan and everyone!

Originally Posted by JohnJL

Well, mixed success.

Last Wednesday had some successes and failures.

We spent a few more hours cleaning things up and getting idle set up, and then went over to the dyno for a few hours, finally finishing up at 11:30 PM.

The motor ran well, transmission did its bit and everything held together, which was obviously relieving.

However power was way down from where I expected. Here's a link to the 930/Supercharged forum where I describe the symptoms...



Since found at least 3 issues...

1. Cam timing on one side was slightly out. I was hoping to find the cams out more as this would expain the issues we were having but it looks like the 456 bank was out ~0.5mm. The 123 bank was bang on 2.4mm.

2. The TDC mark on the crank pulley was 8 degrees retarded. THis is a issue however doesnt explain the loss of boost.

3. THe idle correction settings were way off.

She now starts fine but idles with a lot of hunt and is a beast to get up/off the trailer and into the garage.

The ignition map looks crazy, I need some help here. My plan is to install the new harness over the next 2 weeks and neaten everything up. The tuner gets back from holiday then and I'd like to get right over to the dyno then. In the meantime I'd like to clean up the ignition map and would appreciate some help from others running 10-15 lbs boost. What is your idle timing, how early do you ramp up and at what advance do you top out?

your help appreciated...

[beepbeep]

Dear John,

To be able to tune your engine correctly, it is imperative that 0 degree in your ignition table really corresponds with piston TDC. Make sure that is the case by all means, even if you have to mechanically determine that crank pulley notch is right.

I don't think there is anything wrong with your boost or dyno results . If half of engine was running with misaligned cam and ignition was 8 degrees lower than what you believe is used then your results are quite understandable.

Regarding ignition table, I believe that there are gentlemen here that have mapped their ignition on similar setup and they will probably chime in soon. (just remember that you have to tweak those curves at low revs as your engine can provide full boost at low revs which turbocharged engine cannot due to turbo being "detached" from crank)

Few words of advice: start with low advance and work your way upward on the dyno. You don't need as much advance with twin plugs as with single plug.
"Choppy" table with 36 degree (!) "real world" advance (where 0 degree is really 0 degree) sounds a bit high to me and might result in knock/shattered piston rings if "tested" on dyno on full boost. So start low & safe and work upwards. Further, you don't need much advance on idle. 5 degree or so will be fine.

Usually, you set your advance nice and low at idle RPM (for example 5 degree at 900 RPM) and then you hike it up just underneath the idle in order to "fight" against the engine trying to drop lower than so.

Personally, I would start by determining the max advance I feel safe running at full throttle, then map the full throttle run. After that, you can hunt for more efficiency by raising the advance on half-load cells and try to improve driveability and MPG.

So yes, I believe you have to zero the ignition map and start all over again as your old map worked against 8 deg. retard and (from what you said) doesn't quite make sense. But whatever you do, make sure 0 deg is 0 deg and that you start tuning with sensible amount of advance so you don't knock the engine in pieces the first pull you do. And yes, your AFR table might need rework as well as it was presumably done against misaligned engine/ignition.

Regards,
Goran

Originally Posted by JohnJL

Goran,
Your remarks are insightful as always. the 456 cam was out by 0.5MM. the 123 was spot on.

We only have 2 hose clamps, on the intake to the IC. They are tight. The intercooler exhaust side to the intake manifold uses Mark Hargett's QDC. They are supposed to be good to 100 psi. We dont have a smoke machine handy to check.

You are also right that the TDC mark on the crank was wrong...8 degrees retarded.

The spark map I have now is all over the page. I am up for putting in time to develop it but would be very glad for some guidance on starting points...for guys running 10-15lbs boost, where are you setting idle timing, when do you start ramoing up timing, and where/what is your max advance?

My map now starts at about 12 degrees at idle and progresses to 22 degrees. However it has lots of funny points like 36 degrees at high rpm/low load. And 10 degrees at high rpm and 220 kpa.

A cut/past graphical image of someone's map would be very highly appreciated!

Thanks again Goran, Tim, Mike, Jonathan and everyone!

[JohnJL]

Hi,

I have confidence now that 0 is 0...locked timing and checked against a mark transcribed from the original crank pulley.

I am also sure I need to do some "back to basics" work. Both the fuel and ignition maps were adapted from this motor when it was NA, .2L smaller and 2.5 compression points higher.

Anyone willing to share their ignition maps?

j

[TimT]

Which EFI system are you using? Not sure if my maps would be applicable...

Those maps for when the engine was n/a should be a great staring point.. basically already tuned in the non boost areas.. so you only have to tune the boost areas.

Anyway, as Goran mentioned, set the idle first.5 deg is ok , we usually run ten.. and in the low idle cells bump the timing so if the engine feels like stalling, the add'l advance with power it over the stumble.

If you don't feel comfortable tuning max rpm next.. tune at 1000 rpm intervals..

Drive the car on the dyno no load.. assure a/f is ok then tweak timing

Drive the car on the dyno add load... tweak timing until it peaks.. then back off a bit

Drive the car on the dyno add more load.. tweak timing until it peaks.. then back off a bit

Continue this @ 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000 etc.. then look for trends in the map... you can smooth the intermediate points manually off the dyno if you want... Set timing at max rpm 7000? say 26 deg max... run the engine up to 7000...check a/f is ok... apply load...tweak timing till peak power ... then back off a degree or two.

again go through the map and look for trends...tweak a bit...


You can do alot of adjustment to the map sitting on your couch at home while watching tv... You don't want to see any crazy spikes in the map

Also turn off over run fuel...

Also that static timing error is big...