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Taking this ideology, why not to look putting 4-cyl car all exhaust in one single scroll turbo and then there are no time where turbo feels any pulses, like you have twin scroll for 8-cyl car?
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964 C4 1992, 930 "RS3.0 looker", Carrera 3.0 1976
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Old 06-05-2010, 04:15 PM
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I found this and is explains it better than I.

Quote:
Twin-scroll turbo system design addresses many of the shortcomings of single-scroll turbo systems by separating those cylinders whose exhaust gas pulses interfere with each other. Similar in concept to pairing cylinders on race headers for normally aspirated engines, twin-scroll design pairs cylinders to one side of the turbine inlet such that the kinetic energy from the exhaust gases is recovered more efficiently by the turbine. For example, if a four-cylinder engineís firing sequence is 1-3-4-2, cylinder 1 is ending its expansion stroke and opening its exhaust valves while cylinder 2 still has its exhaust valves open (while in its overlap period, where both the intake and exhaust valves are partially open at the same time). In a single-scroll or undivided manifold, the exhaust gas pressure pulse from cylinder 1 is therefore going to interfere with cylinder 2ís ability to expel its exhaust gases, rather than delivering it undisturbed to the turboís turbine the way a twin-scroll system allows.

The result of the superior scavenging effect from a twin-scroll design is better pressure distribution in the exhaust ports and more efficient delivery of exhaust gas energy to the turbochargerís turbine. This in turn allows greater valve overlap, resulting in an improved quality and quantity of the air charge entering each cylinder. In fact, with more valve overlap, the scavenging effect of the exhaust flow can literally draw more air in on the intake side while drawing out the last of the low-pressure exhaust gases, helping pack each cylinder with a denser and purer air charge. And as we all know, a denser and purer air charge means stronger combustion and more power, and more power is good!

But the benefits of twin-scroll design donít end there. With its greater volumetric efficiency and stronger scavenging effect, higher ignition delay can be used, which helps keep peak temperature in the cylinders down. Since cooler cylinder temperatures and lower exhaust gas temperatures allows for a leaner air/fuel ratio, twin-scroll turbo design has been shown to increase turbine efficiency by 7-8 percent and result in fuel efficiency improvements as high as 5 percent.
Found this here: Twin-Scroll Turbo System Design Explained
Old 06-05-2010, 04:30 PM
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I found the very same good write up.

It looks I may go for twin scroll GT35 for my upcoming modification. I do plan to use 993 headers to have nice heater boxes. Only question is what size of waste gates shall I install?
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964 C4 1992, 930 "RS3.0 looker", Carrera 3.0 1976
911 2.4E 1972 (to be 2.4S+ spec race car), 911 2.2T 1967
Old 06-05-2010, 04:42 PM
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For a car where you want heat that sounds like a potentially great idea. I think Brian (RL8) and Ben (M&K mufflers) can make that happen.

Of course equal length would be better however, it seems many of the new car makers are going for the twin Scroll without the equal part. Thus, draw your own conclusions.

It should also be a very low volume system and spool nice and fast.

Not an expert but I think two 38mm Tial's has a bit more capacity than a stock 930 WG and should work well.
Old 06-05-2010, 05:53 PM
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That article is terrible, and the writer is using a bunch of terms that he/she does not understand.

For a twin scroll system to work, each pipe must be kept separate until they reach the turbine inlet flange in order to conserve the momentum of the pulse. This is more important than equal length. You can not have ANY wastegate pipes. When they are closed they provide volume for the pulses to expand into. The Ďsecondariesí of Brianís headers will do the same thing, so that system is not useful. With no wastegate pipes, an integral wastegate turbo must be used.

The part about the scavenging and overlap in the article is incorrect. They have never run this engine. I know for a fact that this engine runs very little overlap, except for when they want to force exhaust INTO the cylinder for EGR purposes.

This is a picture of the exhaust manifold. It is somewhat misleading. The individual pipes are actually in layers, so the cutaway makes it look like the ports dump into a single volume. They donít. There is an individual pipe from each cylinder all the way to the flange. Beautiful.



Here is the dirty secret about divided systems. ALMOST ALL BENEFIT IS LOST WHEN THE WASTEGATES ARE FULLY OPEN. This is not a maximum power enhancing approach, it improves the low end, but the maximum power is about the same.
Old 06-05-2010, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Squirrel View Post
That article is terrible, and the writer is using a bunch of terms that he/she does not understand.
.....................................snipped for space.................................
+1

If you do a Google search on a phrase of the article, "twin-scroll design is better pressure distribution in the exhaust ports and more efficient delivery of exhaust gas energy to the turbochargerís turbine", for instance, you find it plastered all over the internet. Had a difficult time even finding the author who lays claim to the info. It guess if you plaster enough crap everywhere, people start believing it as fact. Ah, the power of the internet.
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Old 06-05-2010, 07:02 PM
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Dave I get what you are saying and may use that technique in the future. I to was wondering where it came from and thought the artical I referanced was the first place said quote was used.


SS,

I am still learning.

It is not the best writing but thought it better than mine if you labored through it.

I will look for some more reference but that article reflects the major points I am thinking are the keys to a split system.

The big one being, it keeps there from being two exhaust valves from being open at the same time which can reduce pressure at the only open exhaust valve on that bank. In turn this makes for better cylinder filling.

The other is it creates an advantage at the turbine by how the exhaust relates to the wheel.

They get a little deep saying we can increase over lap.

My take away from that I might put like this: A C2 cam has a small amount of over lap. A 930 has none. I am guessing he is saying that if there is less pressure in the cylinder when the exhaust valve closes, they can run a little bit more overlap to a benefit. Overlap if used right should increase HP for two reasons. Longer duration and cleaner cylinder fill.

I do not think comparison to scavenging on a normally aspirated race motor made it any clearer though I get his point.


I love that picture of the BMW 6 posted.

What I see is two banks to a split turbinee. Each side has log style manifolds inside an encasement not unlike our heat exchangers to be more thermally efficient, be easer to build, and weigh less than a cast iron system.

They seem to have sized the turbine such that they can control boost by only bleeding off one bank.

All cool stuff.

What am I missing or getting wrong please.

Thanks if you can help.

Last edited by 911st; 06-06-2010 at 07:22 AM..
Old 06-05-2010, 08:02 PM
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Just thought, I suspect the BMW has active cam timing and can vary overlap by rpm and load.

Might be it can work with the lower residual cylinder pressures that come with a divided turbine system and get more aggressive with valve overlap at times.

I can not see how BMW or anyone could have made a lower volume manifold. Further, putting the WG in the turbo eliminates the volume of the WG circuit.

(Maybe a VAT)

I now understand why an equal length header has more even cylinder temps. More even pressures when the exhaust valves closes. This also allows a motor to be run closer to the optimum timing and AFR with out fear of having a cylinder or two detonating.
Old 06-06-2010, 05:15 PM
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Speedy Squirrel & Dave,

You seemd to think the source I referanced above was junk.

In my effort to learn more about the new BMW motor that hits full TQ by 1200rpm (and near full boost). I found this:

Quote:

So what makes this twin-scroll turbo so special?

After searching for a long, in depth article on the subject of twin-scroll turbos, the best one was found over at Modified magazine written by David Pratte titled "Twin Scroll Turbo System Design - Divide And Conquer?"
See:TwinPower: Modified Shows How a Twin-Scroll System Works - BMW Monitor

He seems to think a bit more favorably of the quote and aritical. He went on and said the following that helped me further.

Quote:
The key to having an efficient motor, turbocharged or naturally aspirated, the exhaust gases need to leave the combustion chamber completely and smoothly. In a perfect system, the exhaust gas leaving the exhaust manifold will leave a low pressure pulse. The exhaust gases are being pushed out of the combustion chamber is in a state of high pressure, and is attracted to this low pressure area. This is known as exhaust scavenging.

In a single-scroll turbo system, especially one with an unequal length exhaust manifold, all cylinders exhaust gases interact with the flow of each other. Just as the exhaust gases have left one cylinder, it is just leaving another. The low pressure pulse isnít there.

This can cause the opposite of scavenging called reversion, where the exhaust gases go back into the combustion chamber which creates higher temperatures, less power, and more NOx emissions. To remedy this manufacturers have the exhaust valve open as long as possible before reversion occurs.

The a twin-turbo setup, especially on an inline six like the N54, has a better scavenging effect because the six cylinder exhaust system is split in two, with three cylinders for every turbo. This split creates the opportunity for low pressure pulse to occur in the exhaust manifold. But twin-turbo systems are complex and have a higher weight than a single-turbo system.

Last edited by 911st; 06-06-2010 at 05:45 PM..
Old 06-06-2010, 05:37 PM
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I am not sure if the N55 (twin-scroll) uses this but the naturally aspirated inline 6 uses Valvetronic and double-VANOS. VANOS is the varaible valve timing and Valvetronic is the variable valve lift system which eliminates the throttle.
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Last edited by Flieger; 06-06-2010 at 06:50 PM..
Old 06-06-2010, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
Speedy Squirrel & Dave,

You seemd to think the source I referanced above was junk.

......................................snipped..... ..............................

He seems to think a bit more favorably of the quote and aritical. He went on and said the following that helped me further.
Gee, you searched the internet found someone who agrees with you. I'm happy for you.
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Old 06-06-2010, 08:16 PM
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Dave,

Once again you only seem intent on insearting yourself with emotional response's only to do this provoking thing!
Old 06-07-2010, 10:16 AM
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Flieger,

You are right. After my comments above I did some more research and BMW's new motor variant is truly state of the art.

It is there first time combining variable valve timing, direct injection and turbo charging and some other trick technology's like controllable and variable oil pump delivery. It is able to run at over 10/1 CR on top of running a turbo.

In all, there efforts resulted in over 300# TQ by 1500rpm (apx 200rpm earlier than there twin turbo 6) and about a 7% increase in fuel economy.

Basically this little gem makes full boost by 1500rpm and pulls a 7000rpm red line.

It also makes more TQ and it makes it sooner than Mercedes E class diesel.

Cool stuff and it is interesting they did this by leaving the twin turbo behind for a divided turbine set up with a log exhaust system.
Old 06-07-2010, 10:31 AM
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Dave, is the issue simply that only one reference was cited and that you need hard, empirical evidence or that you think twin scroll technology is without merit?

I think we'll all agree that anything that allows an engine to optimize intake and exhausg velocity gas velocity throughout the rev range is goodness. While I haven't read any PhD these or industry papers on twin scroll technology and variable valve train management, the overwhelming practice of these technologies by massively capitalized companies who make their money by selling optimized solutions tells the story.

The newest turbo engines from the big boys are all going twin scroll on single turbos with variable valve systems. Having talked to camgrinder at length on the effect of lobe spacing, overlap and limiting exhaust duration/lift low in the RPM band to increase boost response was an eye opening conversation.

The best minds with the deepest pockets betting the farm on these technologies are enough for me, especially since my ability to dissect the math isn't there. I accept E=MC^2 not because I can dissect the equation, but because I can understand the intuitive bases for this and also see that nuclear weapons work. I accept these automotive technologies for the same reasons.

The Mitsubishi Evo X and Bimmer turbos are the equivalent of 'the bomb' in the automotive context.
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Old 06-07-2010, 10:54 AM
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That BMW engine is a bit too hot to run at the track IIRC. Nice technology still.
Old 06-07-2010, 10:58 AM
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Is a twin-scroll turbo system more efficient that having two separate compressor/turbine assemblies? I want to isolate the power variable here- how much waste energy is recovered. I realize that a flat-6 packages a separate system quite nicely while an inline engine would like a twin-scroll.
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Old 06-07-2010, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfbus View Post
That BMW engine is a bit too hot to run at the track IIRC. Nice technology still.
That is mainly an issue with the N54 two-turbo engine in the 335i. They do not put much of an oil cooler on it and at the track the temps get up to 250+F and goes into limp home mode. Dinan puts a bigger oil cooler and ducting on and makes a nice track engine.
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Old 06-07-2010, 11:02 AM
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Let me take a moment to explain the above technologies and the benefits they impart on the turbo motor and why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
Flieger,

You are right. After my comments above I did some more research and BMW's new motor variant is truly state of the art.

It is there first time combining variable valve timing, direct injection and turbo charging and some other trick technology's like controllable and variable oil pump delivery. It is able to run at over 10/1 CR on top of running a turbo.

In all, there efforts resulted in over 300# TQ by 1500rpm (apx 200rpm earlier than there twin turbo 6) and about a 7% increase in fuel economy.

Basically this little gem makes full boost by 1500rpm and pulls a 7000rpm red line.

It also makes more TQ and it makes it sooner than Mercedes E class diesel.

Cool stuff and it is interesting they did this by leaving the twin turbo behind for a divided turbine set up with a log exhaust system.
Direct Injection:
  • The 997 DFI injectors operate at 1750 psi. If MFI injectors used to be the holy grail in terms of atomization, injectors that operate at 5 times that pressure are a wonder.
  • Additionally, injection into the combustion chamber means that the fuel's full evaporative capacity is absorbed by the combustion gases, providing better cooling of the combustion process, as well as quenching rogue combustion elements.
  • With these injectors ability to control full directional trim control and withy the ability to fire more than once per cycle based on engine state, means that the fidelity of controlling warm up, knock and other variables is downright unbelievable in terms of tuning flexibility.

Variable valve timing:
  • Controlling overlap by varying lobe spacing is huge: you can go from zero overlap at idle to race overlap at high RPM. At idle, you can build pressure extremely quickly as you can optimize the intake tract's VE to the needs of an engine in terms of air requirements at level that is functionally infinitely variable. This is great for emissions and amazing for power production. No more compromises on overlap means that you can have your cake and eat it.
  • Controlling lift is even more valuable for turbos. By lift limiting the exhaust valve at low RPMs in relation to the intake valve, you can create a massive pressure differential on the exhaust side that creates significant dividends in the integrity of the exhaust wave heading toward the turbo. This translates into ridiculously low boost thresholds. You can basically use a full race cam, but make it pretend to be a cam that if static, would be useless above 3000 RPM, as it would choke off top end power for anything but a low revving diesel.

As far as the "log exhaust" goes:
This is an educated guess, but follow the reasoning: With variable cam timing and lift, at low RPM, the effects of a cam tuned for no-overlap and low lift can provide perfect exhaust wave resolution, then open things up higher in the RPM band for excellent HP production. In an engine like a 911 that has to compromise on a given, fixed cam timing spec, this resolution is not possible - any cam that would exhibit a good exhaust signature at low revs would run out of steam very quickly without being able to increase lift and overlap.

Thus, the reasoning is that at a low number of relative exhaust events over time (RPM), coupled with no overlap and high intake velocity (due to lower valve lift at low engine speed) allows the log type of exhaust to operate as well as a discrete, equal length system. BMW can make incredible low RPM power with a log style header that would not be possible in a fixed cam motor and by the time that RPMs rise, to make full power, the benefits of equal length exhaust tuning are gone (due to gas volume overcoming any synergistic effect that could be derived from pulse tuning/scavenging).
And that's the latest hail mary from an armchair ME wannabe...
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Old 06-07-2010, 11:26 AM
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You guys really need to test drive a BMW 335i to appreciate it.

I've had a variety of high-powered cars in my life and I don't impress easily, but every time I get in my wife's 335xi it impresses me, sewing machine smooth, almost instant torque, revs clean to redline. Damn fine bit of engineering!
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Old 06-07-2010, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenikh View Post
Dave, is the issue simply that only one reference was cited and that you need hard, empirical evidence or that you think twin scroll technology is without merit?

I think we'll all agree that anything that allows an engine to optimize intake and exhausg velocity gas velocity throughout the rev range is goodness. While I haven't read any PhD these or industry papers on twin scroll technology and variable valve train management, the overwhelming practice of these technologies by massively capitalized companies who make their money by selling optimized solutions tells the story.

The newest turbo engines from the big boys are all going twin scroll on single turbos with variable valve systems. Having talked to camgrinder at length on the effect of lobe spacing, overlap and limiting exhaust duration/lift low in the RPM band to increase boost response was an eye opening conversation.

The best minds with the deepest pockets betting the farm on these technologies are enough for me, especially since my ability to dissect the math isn't there. I accept E=MC^2 not because I can dissect the equation, but because I can understand the intuitive bases for this and also see that nuclear weapons work. I accept these automotive technologies for the same reasons.

The Mitsubishi Evo X and Bimmer turbos are the equivalent of 'the bomb' in the automotive context.
Thanks for your input. That's exactly what I was asserting. To use the BMW engine as an example of an efficient twin scrolling exhaust system, grossly over simplifies what BMW accomplished. It's an "apples and oranges" scenario. The BMW engine has direct injection, a more efficient combustion chamber design, variable valve timing, higher compression, PLUS twin scrolling exhaust manifold/turbochargers. It's remarkable the torque this engine produces below 2000RPM...my former boss has one in his 1 Series and that thing is a rocket!!!

But let's keep in mind that engine is producing 100 horsepower per liter and most of us are already beyond that. Twin scrolling will produce more efficiency at low engine speeds, but there is no advantage to twin scrolling when an engine achieves higher engine speeds (above 3000RPM, for instance).
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Old 06-07-2010, 01:49 PM
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