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Which Twin Scroll Turbo for a 930
We've built a few custom sets of headers to be used with twin scroll turbos, all high HP engines.
I was thinking about building a setup to be used with sup-400WHP CIS engines like most of us have, the benefit being a quick spool combined with a good top end. But which turbo to use? I have heard there are new turbos available that are oil cooled only, no water. Cannot remember who is making them. Are any of these T3 or T4 twin scroll and of appropriate size? |
Hi Brian,
for Twin Turbo application, i will use Garrett GT28RS or GT30 turbo, for maximum power and quick spool. Water cooling is not a problem, you can use little fan heater like this one : http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1289737619.jpg Twin GT28RS for +500HP, and 2x GT30 for +600HP :p But you will have a "modern car", less feeling than single turbo... You can also use twin K24 turbo, like 993TT, for +500HP, but i don't know if twin turbo are possible with CIS !? |
Hi Brian,
Have you tried calling CompTurbo? They have all types of configurations available; Ceramic BB, Journal Bearing, oil or oil/water cooled, T3/T4, V-Band vs flange, various A/R's, etc. CompTurbo |
I am a candidate for RarlyL8 headers and TwinScroll on CIS 400 RWHP is exactly my target. subscribed. Mi car is a 3.6 so my turbo might nave to be different.
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Thank you for you inputs.
This is a specifc application and the build parameters are set in stone: > CIS > Oil only cooling - no water > 400WHP max at 1.0bar, 6500rpm redline. > T3 or T4 > Twin Scoll devided housing turbo Goal is to find the widest powerband twin scroll turbo that will support 400WHP. I took a look at the CompTurbo website but see no information on sizing for application or any specific range of operation data. May have missed that page. |
I would suggest you give them a call and give them your specifications.
You can also find the twin scroll designs by Garrett. It seems they incorporate twin scroll in their GT37 and higher designs. Garrett Turbo's There may be a reason why they use twin scroll on larger turbine frames and not on the smaller GT30 & GT 35 frames. |
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ATP seems to offer twin scroll housing options for the GT35 and large GT3076R. I agree with Dave, it might be worth calling Garret. If they do not offer them direct they might know who is.
I suspect that if you look into the GT3076R which is between the normal GT30's and GT35 you might find it is a good fit. Also note there is a new forged compressor wheel working its way through Garrett, Turbonetics and some others. Might see if it is available in the GT 30/35's yet. Examples: GT35R 0.82 A/R T3 DIVIDED Turbine Housing for GT3582R : atpturbo.com GT30R 1.06 A/R T3 DIVIDED Turbine Housing for GT3071R/GT3076R/GT3082R : atpturbo.com Years ago I used to have a Turbonetics catalog. They had a number of twin scroll turbine housings. Might call them to. |
Brian,
This might be a lead only. Not for the turbo size as a 62mm inducer is probably to big. But I think they may have a unique approach to the center section. Other than that I know nothing about them. Quote:
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Has anyone tried or heard of master power turbos? Dynamic Turbo : Master Power Turbo
802128-070 could be close to what you're after and cheap. They use those turbos here in drifting with good results but I have no experience with those myself. |
Brian
You are probably thinking about the new line of Borg Warner S-series Extended Tip Technology turbos (like S300SX). They come in both T3 and T4 twin scroll housings, anywhere from 250-850hp. Rice guys are replacing their Garrets with them. Here is their catalog: http://www.turbodriven.com/files/pdf/BWTS_2011_Catalog_SMALL.pdf |
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Do the matching headers in 321SS with heater boxes and you'll totally be my hero! |
This is an old thread, I'm actually working on this system right now and have a turbo candidate:
Garrett GT3582R-TS A client did the homework and we shall see how it works out. The headers are my 930 units with split plenum T4 flange and twin waste gates using 38mm TiALs. Should be a pretty quick spooling setup. |
I bought a T3 Holset HX40 super for my car and it has twin scroll. It was cheaper than Garrett and has options for turbine housing. I think a HX35 super would be a good match for GT35 family but I'm not sure if that one has twin scroll.
Looking forward for the results for the combo you've chosen. |
Digest the information in this and lets talk. Lots of opportunity when you are considering a special exhaust system at this HP level and engine configuration.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/617689-borg-warner-series-erf-turbos.html |
I never shop price without heavily considering value. Garretts are now made in Mexico so you have to watch quality. Ball bearings are marketing bling and no more than a time bomb as far as I am concerned. I won't touch anything made in China.
This choice was made by the client so we'll see how it goes. To date I have not seen any combo that out performs my headers and a K27S for quick spool and 375WHP. This build has a higher HP requirement so twin scroll may be a necessity to get the threshold back down. |
I haven't had time to read all the info Marty but I sure will. I am a big fan of BW/KKK if for no other reason than durability.
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This is the performance turbo product line selected for the new Indy Series engines. They allow the teams to use as single or pairs but must be from this series. No other turbo makes are approved.
Not terribly expensive considering you use the internal W/G, saving the $s of the twin remote W/Gs. |
Also the integrated blow off valves save money as well. Figure $1-300 for a nice set of Blow off valves.
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anyone thats tryed precision turbos?
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Any news on this system, Brian? :)
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The engine is (still) being rebuilt so no data yet.
I am very curious to see how quickly the setup can build boost and maintain it. These same headers on a stock engine with a K27-7200 and my muffler show threshold boost at 1700rpm and full (stock) boost at 2400rpm. This is on a flat road in top gear. If the twin scroll can reduce the distance from threshold to full boost it will be an animal! |
Sounds awesome, Brian.
Thanks for the reply. |
In the drag world, Precision is popular.
Regarding T3, I would think that would be too small since normally, you run a larger A/R with a twin vs the single scroll. I would assume you'd want a T4 to not choke off top end horsepower. |
borg
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So. How did these systems turn out?
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I went with the GT3582R turbo with Brian's twin scroll headers but it's not done yet. Maybe in the next few weeks I'll get it fired up:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/598040-beautiful-puzzle-1987-3-3l-930-efi-build-32.html |
Brian,
Here is my twin scroll set up. I have a T4 turbine with a .58 Aspect Ration. It pulls like a Mack truck for 2000 rpm all the way up to 6500. I specified what I wanted with Brian at Comp Turbo. It is a T3/T4 hybrid with the ceramic ball bearing cartridge. The headers were also of my design and I had a local fabrication shop (Maxwell Industries) modify my Zuc-Z headers. The engine actually needs a higher aspect ratio (its EFI), but for a CSI system, it would work exceptionally well. Here are some photos [img] http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads20/IMG003791329944078.jpg[/img] http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329944140.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329944167.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329944190.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329944210.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329944229.jpg |
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If you didn't, the whole twin scroll system is pretty much wasted (no pun intended) to a single scroll system. I would really advise to weld in a divider wall in the WG 'uppipe'. It should stick out a bit and just not touch the wastegate valve head. The closer the wall is to the WG valvehead the better; even better are just twin wastegates (stating the obvious here) but still ;) |
Well, here are some cold hard facts about this design:
486 Rear Wheel HP .2 BAR at 2000 RPM .7 BAR at 2500 RPM 1.0 bar at 3000 RPM Instants throttle response with no (and I mean NONE) over boost issues. It drives like a normally aspirated car on steroids. The best of both worlds and then some. |
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Just trying to help you develop an even better exhaust system, thats all and thats what forums are all about right? If you don't agree with my statement about what a twin-srcoll system is, lets discuss. Imo, its just the nature of twin-scroll to keep exhaust gasses from both banks seperated. The reduction of reversion is where the extra spool and respons comes from. Your set-up of the single wastegate doesn't completely do that atm for all boost situations, but could be 'easily' adapted if for instance you cut the last piece of wastegate pipe open and weld a wall in there. Trust me, I do have the best of intentions mate ;) |
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http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1330001616.jpg |
To have a true divided twin scroll system each bank must be completely separated. The significance in affect this has on performance depends on all other parameters of the build such as turbo size and design. The purpose behind the design of my headers was to utilize the affect of tuned primaries to both increase lower RPM torque and to send coordinated pulse signals to each side of the twin scroll turbo which will increase mid range RPM torque and HP. The extent that this tuned flow is disturbed by a common waste gate manifold I do not know as both designs have not been tested back to back with the waste gate manifold design being the only change. I do know that both waste gate manifold designs will completely eliminate boost creep / overboost as the angles are very good and signals are taken from both banks.
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Great to hear... now you are talking real Twin scroll setup RarlyL8. That is how it should be!! Every 19 out of 20 suppliers show their true knowledge when mess up the divied pulsing in one common WG piping... and call it twin scroll. Puls energy is lost, and back pressure won again...they only have the bling bling sales text headings left on the price shield.
Every thing must be 100% divided, and using one WG means a WG collector with a collector wall as far as goes up under the WG-valve. However, when on boost, and WG valve is open you still suffer from some backpressure over cam overlab...the size of backpressure depends on WG-valve diameter, angles etc. Two wastegates has the advantage that it holds the back pressure divided ALSO on boost. It does matters on ignition timing and to some extend minor influence on choosing cam/static CR due to cam limitations on duration and thus higher actual dynamic CR from same static CR. The problem is not having the boost the problem/challenge is to get rid of the boost you dont need. Ideal you divide and split your pipe flow angle 50%/50% to turbo and WG. Or primarely to WG secondly to Turbo. I can ensure you that MasterPower from Brazil, a ISO9001 company (which I happens to be the main distributor of in my country ... now you know where I stand), has a very advanced available programme for small twin scroll application racing turbos (and of course bigger models). It goes down to application with bullseye effeciency arround 280-300hp for the smalles twin Scroll T3 turbo (this one Turbo 150-(300)-480hk Twin Scroll + Antisurge | POWERPAGE if you see brown lines on turbine that is copper grease). I proberly have between 2-5 different twin scroll housings for each turbo. We only carry Twin scroll housing from 300hp and upwards. Master Power has just released all new racing programme with billet wheels, new innovated journal bearings (yes, journal...no ball bearing thanks) AND compressor maps. Very few suppliers has compressor maps on their wheels...why ... because it cost an "irak war" to do the wheel product developements and innovations based on actual mapped flow. Garrett and Borg Warner, turbonetics has it...oh and MP now. Many other $$$ ball/grease bearing turbos dont have it. I have some drift car teams running on 3rd seson with various MP turbo...2 supras, 2 skylines and 1 BMW all 6 cylinders. None of them changed turbo in any sesons. If any turbo can resist multible and multible hours of drifting years out they can resist anything you through at it. I have not had even one warranty issue, not even from tractor pulling. We also have many interesting "non-official" customer 1:1 comparison on $$$ 58mm, 62mm + .... single scroll ball bearing turbos vs. MP TS. *And gues why MP TS turbo setup get 800-1500 rpm earlier spoolup. It is all physics and development. Anyway here is my link Turboladere | POWERPAGE with the current turbos (the new line not yet visuable) forget the language .. read the wheel size mm A/R and pictures. The new racing/bearing/billet line is in stock within a month, however all the compressor maps, pictures availble if interested. I can make you a suggested setup on the new MP racing line T3 or T4 twin scroll flange platform from 300-650hp, from hereon +650 hp T4 Twin Scroll flange setup. You will be in for a happy surprice on power, backpressure, spoolup and price. I could also give you some suggestion on second runner pipe diameter after each 3 cyl bank collector. Many forget this last diameter importance on the manifold setup. PM me if interested. Otherwise this is just my 10 cent TS input to consider when doing puls energy and back pressure manifold engineering....and chosing turbo Anyway, great with finally a true TS manifold with single WG. Looking much forward to see it ... show the WG collector :-) Thanks Jakob |
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Another turbo option
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http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1361206304.jpg |
hey calf the bullseye is great dmatera is using one i think but my garret gt40 was putting down torque #s in the 5s at 12 lbs of boost. and that was twin scroll holcombe headers
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Yes, I agree the GT3582R twin scroll turbo could make that kinda whp and would be all Brian would need for his CIS application. We ran it up to around 1.2bar on the dyno when we realized that boost leaks in some of our silicone joints and restricted flow from the GSF IC prolly limited the turbo from reaching it's max whp numbers. At that point we decided to replace both the IC with a larger unit and the silicone joints with hard pipe then try it again, but while were had the GT35R off we decided to go bigger...it's a slippery slope my friend:rolleyes: |
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