[Solved] Problem with TURBOKRAFT
 

Please note: This issue has been resolved by Turbokraft and all parties involved are satisfied with the outcome. -Pelican Parts Staff

Hello

Just a small feedback about my bad experience with TURBOKRAFT (Chris Caroll )

In few words , early July last year (2010 ) , I bought a stock intake manifold ( for my 964 C2 turbo) to a member of this forum. Elliot ( to name him) was very kind and he arranged an immediate shipping to Turbokraft.

The goal was to get extrusion-honing on this manifold as well as ID output machining. In the mean time , I have ordered a set of billet injector blocks with thermal barrier gaskets. The deal was simple and I clearly wrote to Chris what I need exactly.

Manifold output ID : 38mm + extrude honing
Injector block input ID: 38mm
Injector block output ID : 33mm
thermal gasket ID : 33mm

So in the mean time Elliot sent the manifold in Arizona, I sent my TT payment to Chriss Caroll. Basically, the job should have be done within 4 weeks . ( roughtly )

Too make it short, here is the pics of what I received in late of last October !!! ( 3 month after my order has been paid )

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/723...teurkraft1.jpg

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4...teurkraft2.jpg

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7...teurkraft3.jpg


This is a pure disaster job ! Instead to get my requested 38mm , the ID is out of circle from 39 to 42 mm ( very easy to see on the pictures) . This manifold is deffinitively ruined and can not be used !!! ( seeing this, speaking about balanced flow is pure joke)

In addition , as a problem never come alone, the injectors block has been machined to the wrong dimensions. Input ID should have been to 38mm ....I measured 42mm !!! Output ID should have been to 33mm... I measured 32mm. And to win the last penny, the gasket ID was measure at 31.5mm instead of 33 mm .


For sure, as soon as I've received the parts in France, I informed Chris immediately. Few days later, I've got email in which he said he is sorry and will make new parts for me. He explained that he met many trouble with his supplier EXTRUDE HONE..... ok I can understand it. However, it doesn't explain why the machining itself is so out of professionnal standard .... it doesn't explain why his QC dept. could ship these parts with such problem and out of the required specification.

I was very patient until now but we are in late of January......and although the several promises from Chriss I have no any parts from him .( Just remember I paid everything early july) . 2 Weeks before, in order to solve this problem and since he complained again about Extrusion company, I even gave him my agreement to ship a new manifold without extrusion ( just simple machining only ) with correct injector blocks....... he should sent some pics. But no pics and no answer .

This is non professionnal at all ! I have waiting during 6 monthes and all what I got are a ruined manifold , useless injector blocks , too small gasket and 1870 USD out of my account.


Now , I am tired of his false promises and all what I want is my money back .

What a nightmare! Hopefully, Chris will make it right...

I'm not real familiar with extrude hone but that doesn't appear to be done to this intake.

:eek::eek::eek:....what's that brown thing smelling harder.....?......:eek::eek::eek:.....never been professionally made......may be a child in India or north of Africa with a knife......:mad:

Now, your intake is....out...dead.......:(

Hi Serge ;)

I appreciate brownies ..... but for tea time and with a cup of coffee only !!!!


I didn't use your words but it is close of my thinking !

your plight is not funny but I do find amusement in the euro - to - english conversion ;)

Sorry, as you guessed, english is not my mother language... ;)

You write it quite well.....point taken.

I'm not the most experienced with the internals of our engines but I'm able to read your post and look at the pics and easily understand your situation. It's a bummer you had to resort to posting all of this to the forums but I would have done the same. Especially since you have given them plenty of time to work through the issues.

Best of luck to you.

Anyway, a such piece, completely damaged is really a pity (not cruser...:D)...it's a shame, such a shame....to receive a piece like that....it's a shame.......how a company with a high reputation can do that.....:(....the guy spent 1 700 $....it's a lot for such a ****....:eek:

Don't apologize, I was just making a light hearted comment

This is the most upsetting part of this disaster. They advertise it as :

"Having your unit processed usually requires 1-2 week turnaround time and requires several steps and inspections performed here at TurboKraft ensuring certified results."

I was going to buy the same IM too but they had no stock ones available for EH. Now I really need to rethink.

Wow! How is it possible for a company, with as good a reputation as TurboKraft has, to send out something as amateurish as this? Really this is unbelievable

Unbelievable but it's the truth ....

You can even find the classified (WTB) I placed in last November for an other stock manifold .... at that time I just thought I could try to help Chris to locate a manifold .....:(

I have been watching this post for the day, glad to see you chimed in.

Are you out sourcing your CNC work? If so, I can understand your delay. I build custom stunt bike parts and I am at the mercy of the machinist sometimes.

Manifold debacle
 

Thanks to the Pelicans who emailed me about this posting. I appreciate the nice words some of you wrote, very defensive of us.

But in this case, Thierry is spot -on: we screwed up, and he's got every right to be upset.
We didn't -- I didn't -- verify his order was done right, and it got shipped out. Poor quality control, my error.
And I was supposed to email him a photo of the new manifold I'd had pilot bored at our machine shop, but didn't follow up on that. Again, my error.
My apologies to you, Thierry. You're a respected guy on this board, and I admire your innovation with your car (way cool electronic tuning of the CIS!) I have no desire or intention to do to screw you over.

We did 4 Porsche manifolds with E-H in a batch, and Thierry's was one of them. It took E-H forever, and the first time they returned the parts (late) they barely flowed them at all -- maybe 1mm opened, hardly smoothed out inside. They paid to overnight them back and re-do them, and that added weeks again.

We've used one of the manifolds (it was good), shipped one (also good), and until a few minutes ago the last one was one a shelf here, waiting for when we got to that client engine job.

I just got the box down and inspected the part. Thierry's photos don't do it justice. The manifold is simply ruined. Ports that were once round are now egg-shaped or almost a polygon.

I can't use this part, and I wouldn't expect Thierry to use that one. It's crap.

We prepped this other manifold, but have a production delay with our CIS Injector Blocks and are looking at 3 more weeks. (Sorry to you all, too, who are waiting on these.) This is how Thierry's manifold looked *before* we sent it to Extrude-Hone for their "Level II processing."

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1296162011.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1296162146.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1296162290.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1296162303.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1296162339.jpg

Thierry -- my apologies to you, again. I just saw your email in my Inbox and I'll send you that refund via PayPal to the address you gave. I included the postage you listed to send back those parts. I'm sending that manifold back to E-H for them to look at. We've gotten a tough lesson today in Quality Control, and maybe E-H will learn from this, too.

Regards,

Smurfbus -- After this debacle with Thierry's manifold, and seeing the one we shelved until needed, I can see it's not an isolated event.
So we're going to suspend offering the Extruded manifolds until we can be confident no parts come back looking like that. We've had no issues with E-H like this in the past, but these parts aren't cheap and they only getting more scarce. We can't afford to have them ruined.

(Also, thanks to everyone who replied to our request for core manifolds, too. We were going to have these done in advance, to offer them on an exchange basis so there's no wait, but that's getting shelved until further notice.)

IMR-Merlin -- yes, we outsource most CNC machining. We luckily found a high-end mold making shop that enjoys doing these smaller batch production items (injector blocks, transmission mounts, etc.) Being a mold shop they are usually excessive anal-retentive about tolerances and measurements (they worry about 0.00025") so they were surprised about the 31.5mm measurement of the gasket. The supervisor there just assured me that won't happen again.

just goes to show we are all human and make mistakes.

It's what you do after the mistake that makes you who you are.

A+ Chris

I about fell off my chair and choked on my coffee this morning reading Thierry's post. This whole sorry, unfortunate chapter is so counter to what I've experienced with TurboKraft that to say I was "astounded" doesn't do it justice. Obviously, balls were dropped, and badly, and Thierry is right to be really and trully pissed. But the Chris Carroll I've come to know over the past months doesn't do business this way. If anything, Chris is almost obsessive/compulsive to a fault about stuff like this, no matter what the time or cost to his company. That's why I'm confident that as well as apologizing to Thierry, Chris will make things right. In the final analysis, Chris is a standup guy.

I don't get it !?
"...stand up guy..." , "...great reputation..", "...Chris is almost obsessive/compulsive to a fault about stuff like this..." and etc !!!!

Thierry25 needed THREE MONTHS to get an answer , appology and public statment his money will be refunded !!!! I understand being busy for a week. OK, lets say two weeks and then solve the problem. But THREE MONTHS and involvement of Pelican Parts Forum !?
How TurboCraft is better than MotorMeister, Zufenhaus ( wiht their wheels ) ?

Really !?

Seems to me , only figuring out what this kind of publicity, on the web ,will do to his reputation, Chris addresed the issue .

He does live in France, shipping over seas takes time unless sent by air.

ive spoken to cris a few times regarding which manifold to go with for my current efi project as well as injector blocks and rails, very knowledgable guy and yet i went a different route i chose pat willims racing in memphis and could not be more pleased with fit finish and turnaround. he even had one of his special garret turbos built for me in that 2 week time. great guy, great products. just my 2

You kidding me right? How much time it takes to asure one that problem will be solved?! To make everything right so he won't go public?!

I want that stuff you on.

He paid , upfront , in July, 2010. Received in October 2010. WENT PUBLIC ABOUT HIS PROBLEM in JANUARY 2011. What it has to do ith the place he lives? Are ou telling me Paypal, Bank to Bank wire takes monthS to arrainge......

No, I am not kidding, unless I read the initial post wrong. The OP stated that he had a 3rd party send the parts to TC and TC had to outsource the work another company that does his extrude hone work.... if you follow the crumbs, the trail is pretty easy to follow, now add shipping time across the ATLANTIC and the math starts to add up.

As for the rep from TC (Chris), within 24 hours of this post going "public" he responded and owned up to his short comings on QC, which I have run into situations in outsourcing..... and I can understand Chris' plight.


So, in short, not joking. Just have run into situations where I trusted a company that I did work with before and ended up holding the short end of the stick. It took some time to rectify the situation, but in the end, the correct response to the problem is the end of the argument. I replaced the product, refunded the customer on top of it and made it right.

Let time work things out. If you can't figure out why it took 3 months for the OP to see the start of this transaction to end that made him start this thread, it's not my fault that you have no concept of the fabrication industry.


Again if I read understood it wrong.... as in it took 3 months for TC to respond to a complaint. Then it is on TC to rectify.

Why I have to care about outsourcing as a customer?

If a company is not able to do this without quality issue and excessive delivery time, then they better leave it

Regardless which industry, if it fails like this, then I would expect they work day and night to resolve it!

How long can it take to find a manifold and machine it? I machined mine within two hours... with tolerance of less than a tenth mm not a few mm!!!

I can completely understand Thierry. I know, Chris does not screwed up himself, but he is responsible for and he should act like this.

it took TC to respond ,in correct manner, three (3) monhts from day, Thierry ,received his part ( in France, some time in Oct.2010). 3(three ) months and public statement how TC screwd him !

Oh, and in regards of "having no concept of the fabrication industry"- why should I? I pay $$$. You give me ET and promise of quality. What goes in between, why should I care? Seems,to me, you have to have better understanding of fabrication industry not to give FALSE promises.

unless you are part owner/share holder or interested party in TC , I don't get you position.

nobody here knows how this all went down but as a business owner I can assure you things do fall through the cracks. And sometimes the worst oversights happen repeatedly to the same customer. I seriously doubt any ill intentions on Chris's part. It's easy to sit here and arm chair quaterback this situation with a zero tolerance for human error but EVERYBODY makes mistakes and that's just a fact!

He is fixing this now because it has been brought to his attention.

+1 on this. Kris is a standup guy and as highly respected as anyone in the industry....

agree with you Paul. Errors happens. We all humans afterall.
Back to subject and my point :

I don't get it ( rest of the sentence in ,my , first post).

Chris

Thank you very much for your input, for the story details and for your apologizes ( that I believe sincere)

As a well reputed professional , I was pretty sure ( and I expected) that you would come to reply to my thread. Somewhere what's a pity.....you knew by my numerous sent emails that it wasn't my intention to attempt to your reputation. But at last, without pictures, without answer, and with an important disappointment ....this was the last way I found to make you to move quicker and to consider my case.

As you certainly understood from our past communication, I well understand all kinds of problem outsourcing can create. I also run my own business which involves many outsources. I also consider that everyone can make mistakes... we are all human. This is why, I was quite patient and I kept this story on private side only until this thread. But after past 6 months ( not few weeks ), for the customer I am , it is simply unacceptable to do not get the goods I paid for.

Back to the EH trouble itself, you know my opinion. Honestly, I would have been happy to receive "as is" the manifold that you displayed the pictures with correctly sized injector blocks . The 38mm machining job seems to be nice and well done. Considering what I saw from the ruined manifold you sent to me , I was not impressed by the EH itself and I do not believe it makes huge improvement. So many trouble and headache for very few added CFM only ( which can be certainly compensated by other parameters and/or stuff ) .... At least, you take the right decision to suspend the EH offering !!!

Lastly, no people dye. Things have been said, you conveyed human apologies and professional explains here. That’s fine ! I have no anger about you. I also learn with this case.

Now, I am waiting for your refund on my paypal account and this story will be definitively closed for me.

Best regards

Thierry

Thierry, sorry to hear of this situation.

Chris probably has the most experience of processing and developing Porsche parts with the Extrude Hone company. Even before 2005, when Kennametal an American tool company bought Extrude Hone’s patented process. This isn’t the first Porsche magnesium manifold the company has done. Hopefully in the future the process won't have to be priced out of existence. When done properly, it is quite effective.

The AFM process as basic as it is requires an investment of time and isn’t performed in the back of the shop, on every street corner or State. Managing multiples reduces customer cost and saves setup. In this instance, against all precautions the operations done by Extrude Hone were not done properly on all of the parts in the batch. And what's with the out of character delays?

Bottom line is the part shouldn’t have been forwarded to the customer after it was received back to TurboKraft. The shipping cost and time to France shouldn’t have even been bared.

One thing I value about working with Chris at TurboKraft is that he operates with high integrity. So ridiculously high, it is difficult to survive by offering special projects in this industry.

Thierry, I wouldn’t doubt Chris at TurboKraft, will ultimately supply you true Porsche quality parts in the end.

In any growing small business mistakes will be made, it is always a struggle to keep up with QC issues, especially when outsourcing partners are involved. The important thing here was that once the problem came to light, Chris made the right moves to address the issue properly. The highly-positive impression I have of Chris's business from my admittedly-limited dealings with him have only been reinforced by the way in which he is rectifying this issue.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1296261575.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1296261610.jpg

I just saw this thread and had to post.
In the pics you see my intake Chris had extrude honed and his injector blocks.
Thanks to his help and many hours on the phone I got 411 rwhp on a CIS motor with 112,000 km's on it. :D
Chris recommended the extrude hone process and offered to send my intake to them. I don't think he makes much money on this if any. He just offers to be the middle man. Extrude hone is the company doing the porting and not Turbo Kraft. Sorry for your bad experience but Chris is a stand up guy who will most likely make everything right even if he losses money. He is a car car like the rest of us.

This reminds me of a story a balance engineer I worked with told me about a job he had at an engine shop as kid.

A guy brought in a crank to be lightened and balanced and paid ahead of time. He came by the shop and nobody was in the front office but his crank was sitting there all ready to go so he took it and built his engine.

A couple days later he brought his crank back in two pieces.

The shop owner rushed up, started apologizing and explained that they over lightened the crank. He said they meant to explain this to the customer when he came in for the crank, give him his old crank, and give him a new correct crank in a few days.

The customer said, "Don't worry about it, I was leading the race when it broke and I want another one just like it!"

well, on a lighter note.. it's been kinda cool seeing all these hogged out pancake manifold ports.

Did I mention something in this way ?

you didn't, but the sharks were circling

It takes a lifetime to establish a good reputation, and one oversight seems so devastating. Sometimes life just isn't fair.

why so dramatic ? Life is life. We all take to the face once or twice in a lifetime. Matter is how fast we get up and handle our selfs afterwards.

lesson is: there are no small problem. They all should be addressed in proper and timely manner.

would any of us knew about it if it was solved before hitting internet?

Do you mean that I shouldn't come to public with my case ? What would have you done if you were in my position ?