header install Q's - secret handshakes?
 

Car's up in air, bumper's off, bits been soaking in PB blast in hot cycles for 2-3 weeks now. I should be ready.

Looking up, what's the best way to get the 13mm nuts off the flanges into the motor? I can get a boxed end on but then no way to swing it. Socket hits side of exchanger, even with a universal adapter. Ugh.

Surely the braintrust here can share some BTDT. I've seen a bent wrench someone made (GSF sells them on their site IIRC), but I've no way to make my own.

I've got a MAPP torch, but no OA btw.

For the turbo flange nuts - what's best way to access? I was hoping to remove the turbo / muffler as one and not having to fuss w/ more hardware, but looking in there I can't see how to get to those bits w/ the muffler there.

How about the heater downpipe on the driver side? I'm pulling the crap out of it and can't get it to pull down thru the tin (girliemon!). JPipe is very much in the way, but was hoping this would come out first to allow best access to #1 flange.

Re-read GSXRKen's RL8 header install thread from '09, I remembered it soon as I re-read it. Ugh. Hoping I'm not facing the same (snapped studs galore).

Hoping for best here, your insight is appreciated. Thanks guys, as always. Going to bed...

Heat is your friend
 

Too bad you couldn't get a tourch with a more concentrated flame. Know any plumbers? A presto lite/ B tank setup is perfect. Nice pencil like flame. Does your car still have the barrel nuts? If so heat these up and pound a larger size allen key in them. Also a hammer and small cold chisel. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A FIRE EXTINGUISHER. cheers Philip

Hi Paulie,

Since your car is an 87' like mine, don't you have the Allen bolt studs that hold your stock exhaust manifold on? Based upon what you said, though, it sounds as if someone has replaced them. No matter what, it isn't easy taking those nuts/studs off, and it is timely. If you are lacking an abundant supply of tools, like me, you will have to be creative in figuring it out. When I took mine off, I had to sometimes hammer my Allen key by hitting one end of a breaker bar; grip it with a pair of vice-grips to increase the leverage; and probably a couple other ways I can't think of at the moment. Maybe someone who has a treasure trove of tools can illuminate you better than I.

I'm pretty sure your new headers are the same ones I have, and as such, you will have to replace your solid metal oil return tube with a flexible SS line (I think I put mine on after I installed the headers, but you will have to figure that out by trial and error...Unless someone with a better memory than mine can chime in) before you can put on the headers.

Good luck, buddy

Thanks Geoff - yes, I've got barrel nuts on the 3 that can be reached via the thru-ports in the heater boxes. The other 3 are 13mm regular nuts.

Anyone, on those specifically?

Yes, got my new 'back date' oil lines from TurboKraft yesterday along w/ injector plugs and gaskets.

Really could use some guidance here...

red hot
 

It's really not that hard once you get at it. You really can't hurt anything. Go for it! Start with a easy one, get it as hot as you can, red/white, You'll feel the bond break between the nut/stud. Philip

Paul,

I use 3 or 4 different 13mm wrenches to get to those nuts. Its crucial to have the right tools.

the money tools in my arsenal for heat exchanger removal are:
stubby flex head ratcheting combo wrench
deep offset wrench
1/4" drive swivel socket

Thanks Jake - that's helpful!

I opted to skip heading to my bud's house / lift as I had very likely visions of getting it apart and not getting home before dawn.

Started the process here on stands instead. My bud (Mr. Martini Targa) came by tonight w/ his O/A torch and we bent a 13mm wrench into an "s" shape. Got the first barrel nut and 13mm hex off no prob. Number 2, the barrel snapped and the 13mm didn't fit tight on the nut at ALL - basically spun. We cut it off w/ the torch but it fubar'd the threads a bit. Got barrel #3 off, and #3 hex was same as #2 so we cut it w/ same thread result.

Cut J-pipe nuts off... gotta say, that was liberating! 8-) BEGONE insipid pipe of crappy laginess!

So, J-pipe, LH manifold, exhaust, and turbo are off. Packing it in for night and will endeavor the right side manifold some other eve this week.

Off to buy some hardware in the meantime, and prob some of your suggested tools Jake for the remaining side.

Least we turned the corner - feels GOOD, despite all the kicks in the nutes (fookin clamp on the oil drip tank was seized so removed by taking the bracket the clamp attached to off... 1/32nd of a turn at a time, having to flip the wrench open/box each time. Coupla other mockeries, as well - why not?

Learning a ton, which is always great.

Found out my lower chain covers have nominal leaks on each side, as well as the scavenge pump area. Will prob search then start a thread on remedy "while I'm in there" (famous last werdz!), as well as prob adj valves and do valve cover gaskets, instead of rushing along. Why not.

Thanks again all - I'd never even consider thinking of trying any of this w/o youses instigators! 8-) Brian gave me some further phone time earlier this eve too, whattapal...

Time to sleepy, if bedroom door isn't locked - d'oh! Tough to be thrown into "The Dog House"... when you LIVE THERE, I say...

Make sure when you put it back together to use some good thread lubricant so that when the headers crack and need replaced. Or you bend the crap out of them on speed bumps. You can get it apart easy next time. I use felpro/locktite N-7000

That's the tool I was trying to describe yesterday when the oldtimers kicked in.
Keep at it you're almost there!

I owned zero swivel sockets when I bought the 930. Now I have a several sizes :D

A 13 mm socket with integral hooke joint and a small diameter 13 mm socket on a long extension were the weapons of choice for removing my sstock heat exchangers. I had to heat the old nuts cherry red and immediately (and I do mean immediately) slap the socket on and turn it off as fast as possible. Worked like a charm.
For installing the 993 heat exchangers, I have to use a 13 mm offset box end wrench to reach the r/h middle flange outside and inside nuts.

Hey Paul, what did you decide to do with the oil lines?

Good point Ken - will do.

Thanks David / Paul!

Harbor Freight only had 3/8" drive swivel sockets, will try that tomorrow and see. Didn't have stubby articulated gear wrenches, only full size. The 13mm offset wrench we made is fine, it's more an issue that the nuts have 'shrank' and the box end is just too big.

We'll see how the other 3 go this week.

Oh, anecdotally... was thrilled/surprised to find my 50k mi 3LDZ displaying *zero* shaft play! Not lateral or fore/aft. Go figure...

Hey Paul- sounds like you are well on your way! Like many have said, I have amassed several screwball metric tools that I never needed until I acquired the 930.

Push on- it's worth it! Your reference to my tribulations made me go back and read my original post... I am glad it's behind me and I do remember hating my car for a bit, but time does heal all wounds. Other than a failed decel valve where my backfiring on let-off got to be TOO much, it really hasn't jerked me around since then and the RL8 setup will not disappoint.

I was able to slip a shortened 13mm 1/4" drive between the exchanger and the nut, then plug in the 1/4" extension up through the access holes in the exchanger.
Like Brian says, the 1/4" drive socket set is your friend here.
Bill K.

Thanks Ken / Bill!

My 3/8" wobble socket hits the side of the piping 'somewhat' but might work on 2 if not all 3 of those nuts. Will see tonight. If not, we'll torch them too - I ended up ordering 12 new studs and nuts / barrel nuts anyways after seeing the condition of the studs that I did NOT break. Something told me (cough Pete) they'd likely break when I go to install everything - no thanks. The threads are disintegrated where they were covered by the flanges - eeek.

Best way to remove the old studs?

I can double-nut the ones that the lead threads remain good on, but the ones that were torched we may have to weld a nut on to? My bud wasn't sure his welder would be strong enough to get a good weld on there to hold. Thoughts? Or, other suggested stud removal tips?

Diving back in tonight - accumulator's off (new one arrives today woot - only took me 4yrs to fix d'oh), valve covers are off 'n shined up, new motor mounts are come today too, fuel (system) pressure is up to 7.0 after shimming... just need to adj the valves, get that mani off, and get the headers on.

"Just"... 8-/...

Getting there!

I would be remiss if I did not add my oft stated recommendation: Part with some dear cash at ARP (800-826-3045) for their stainless fasteners and you will never have this problem again. If the PO had done it you might be smiling now...

Ask for (1) 400-8005 and (1) 400-8015, these are the twelve 1.25 x 57mm exhaust header (thick flange) stud, washer, nut kits. $135
Ask for (2) 771-1004, these are the eight 1.25 x 35mm exhaust piping bolts. $73.50 (two spares)
Ask for (8) 400-8310, these are the M8 12 pt. exhaust pipe flange nuts. $32

Mark

Thanks Mark - I went budget and got our hosts items already, all new studs 'n nuts.

Got righty off in no time this evening - literally minutes. Heated 1st 13mm and it promptly busted. But the other 5 came off w/o issue. Used a 13mm 1/4" drive u-jointed socket on a 3/8" expander to optimize the torque. Worked great on the 2 that didn't break. Think I didn't get the tool on the first nut tonight quick enough after removing the torch and it snapped, ah well.

So, 2 busted studs (one each of 13mm / barrel, one per side) and two 13mm nuts cut off (on barrel nut bust side). Total screw-job removals: 4 of 12... not 'too' bad (SO FAR), especially for 'moi'.

Of course the last of the 6 air injectors decided to strip itself OUT of the threads as I removed it. I don't get it, the other 5 came out like butter (I even got the whole spider out really easy and fully in-tact).

The threads in the head are not too fubar'd but will have to address to clean them up.

Hey, where to score hi-temp Loctite? NAPA gave me what they said was hi-temp, I got home and read it: 300*. Idiots. And idiot me for being in a hurry and trusting them and not reading the damn label. Or can I use JB Weld? Have the 6 port plugs, but need to ensure they stay IN.

Sooooooooooo... best way to remove the studs??? Here's what the look like - you can see why I got all new ones:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_D...0/IMG_8827.JPG

Will endeavor that likely Mon / Tue next week, then start bolting it back together. Valve adj tomorrow. Time to go make friends w/ What's Her Face for the time being, before the locks are changed...

...anyone on the studs???

They're currently being shot w/ PB Blast daily.

Double nut?

Weld a nut?

Other?

Bueller?

Double nut, weld a nut or buy a stud extractor. Welding a nut often works because the heat travels through the stud and loosens the installed loctite

Thanks!

We were thinking of gas welding the nut on, but feared it might just weaken the stud.

Any particular suggested stud extractor / preferred source?

After soaked... if there is any stud projection left... a good vise grip should take care of them.

There is a guy here who sells a jig for drilling out exhaust studs. I bought it when i was building my engine the frist time. I have used it several times since it's very handy and works well. When i bought my car it was apart and in many boxes. Some of the head studs needed replaced. A couple weeks ago while i was getting my spare set of heads ready to be sent out for twin plugging and porting a few of those studs needed to be drilled out also. I just double nutted them and heated with a torch. All but two came out and those snapped off. So i drilled them out and time certed them. I'll send you the link if i can find it. He posted over on the engine building forum i think.

STOMSKI-SR065 here is the one pelican sells there is another though made by a pelican and a lot cheaper

+ 1 for if your studs break off flush, don't F with them until you buy the exhuast jig mentioned above, I think pelican carries it now. I bought it back when the fellow Pellicanite was making and selling them directly - I think i bought his first complete kit. :) I had 6 studs snap off and the jig took care of them in about 45 minutes. :)

Here is what my studs look like now.

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/9441/img5098q.jpg

+1

Pelican Parts Technical BBS - View Profile: A Quiet Boom here is the link to the pelican who sells them not sure if still make them or not. mailto:cds@akroncoating.com this is his latest e mail address.

I think that Snap On makes the stud extractor...

Ken / JP / E-Man - you guyz rule... thanks.

HOPING it doesn't come to jig-time, but good to know.

Heading to store on way home in pursuit of extractor.

Tx again lads - a have safe and fun weekend, in Memorium...

I'd go with MAPP gas, bees wax, and a stud socket/extractor. Heat the aluminum around the stud and let the wax wick into the threads then twist it out.

I believe the exhaust studs are pretty weldable so as long as you have some stud left you can weld a nut on it.

If that doesn't work you'll likely have to drill it out.

Easy out type tools don't usually work on these, but if you're going to use one use the square type not the twisted type.

Thanks Dave!

Of course, I read this after returning from the store Fri with what I think is the 'twist' type? It's all Sears had.

What is the square type?

Interesting tip on the bees wax - what's that do? Should be diving on this tonight / tomorrow - oy...

If you snap off even one you will need the jig. I would not recommend trying an easy out because you first have to drill a hole in the stud. thats normally not a problem when it's been broken off in a cast iron engine block or heads but these are aluminum which is softer than the stud. So the drill will deflect into the head and just make a mess and possibly ruin the head. Even if it was cast iron the best method I have always used was a cutting torch you just heat the broken stud with it until it turns cherry red the just touch the oxygen lever and the stud will melt and run out of the hole without damaging the threads. But that only works on cast iron, the block makes a huge heat sink and I only mentioned it because some of us also work on other engines too.

[QUOTE=krasuskyp;6044265]Here's what the look like - you can see why I got all new ones:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_D...0/IMG_8827.JPG

You poor east coast sob.... good luck, my friend.

geeeee - thaaaaaaaaaaanks! 8-)

Ken, my bud's a machinist and said to get him the measurements and he'd fab me a jig in a day or so if need be - hope not. Not to keen on that $268 jobber from our host 8-/...

Heading out now to adj valves, fit oil lines, etc. Will tackle studs tomorrow hopefully... yeah, trying to deny / procrastinate the inevitable as loooon as possible lol...

Yeah i forgot you are in Ct same job would be worth a can of coffee when i was in the navy at the ship yard there. probably still is if you know anyone at EB. You could get ANYTHING made in the machine shop for a can of coffee when i was there

too funny Ken

EB's due south of me, about 50min

This guy's @ UTC (Pratt) in East Hartford which is 20min from me, another big employer up here. Lotsa machine shops / job shops around these parts tho, sure. Most looking for work which is good / bad...

Got my headers welded for a box 'o Joe and a dozen donuts - inflation? 8-)

Just in from the valve adj - popped my cherry. Can't say that was fun - was a messy generally tedious and annoying endeavor. Funny, 12-15k I've put on the car and lord knows when last they were done... if anything they tightened somewhat, didn't find any loose tho. Weird.

Just got in, once again... double nutted a few, single nutted and peened over the stud on a few more... FIVE are out. The rest are double nutted and await MiG'ing tomorrow (not enough good threads left to get the nuts a good bite on the studs).

PHEW! Knock woodrow, boy, a few came right out! The rest are too tight to bother fighting, hoping the MiG heat will help.

Oil lines are off too, valves adjusted, covers polished, accumulator in... 7 more studs to pull and install the air injector plugs, and it's time to start installing headers / muffler / turbo / bumper... schweeeeeeeeeet.

Will be NOICE to be DONE, fersure...

Now, to remember how TF to put it all back together 8-/. Short term memory, not my strong suit. Def going to have a few Q's come 'that time' heh heh...

Make sure when you put the air injector plugs in take a punch and deform one of the threads so that it doesnt back out and fall out later. The first set of plugs i put in i had three of them blow out on the racetrack at sebring. Sounded like a tractor when i drove home. The heat is too high for thread locker to work. Second set has been there several years with no issues.

Ahhh, thanks for that tip Ken! I recall your mention of this in a previous post, but was struggling to recall 'what' the tip was (besides welding them in).

Got it - will do!

you are welcome also forgot to mention get the good quality ones with the shoulder and the little copper gasket. I think they are sold here.