go ahead and flame me - no start issue

[cellison]

I have been troubleshooting a no start issue. Car ran fine then just would not restart after a spirited drive. when it first occurred and i had the car back in the garage, when I started the car, i could smell some fuel in the engine area so i started to focus on electrical. when i tried to start the car, it would turn over fine, but it was like the coil wire was pulled out..just turn and turn and turn until the battery ran out of juice. based on my Pelican searches and a advice (board and calls/e-mails), i went down this path:

1.) found my coil sec resistance to be bad, and bought used good black bosh off a running 911 that was upgrading to an MSD. measured the resistance and it was good.
2.) went ahead and bought new plugs, wires set , dist cap and rotor to freshen some old comments up, hn things up.
3.) everything back installed car would not start.
4.) checked voltage at the cdi harness, green wire, dist resistance, distributor low voltage during crnking etc etc and found all to be ok.
5.) CDI hummed when i had it on, but whet ahead and put it into another 930 (thanks patric) and that car would not start.
6.) sent the CDI to ECU dr in FL and they said i had a couple bad capacitors, resoldered some connections and sent it back
7.) put the CDI back, and it hums louder now, but still no start.
8.) rechecked all the connections, test the new coil wire and rotor and coil and they look ok. on the rotor, the spring extends to close the circuit and i "excersized" it. How do you really know it is working mechanically/closing the connection when the distributor shaft is turning it?
9.) pulled the # 4 wire and stuck a plug in it and still did not see a spark.
10. my next step was to pull the tach lead out of the CDI harness and see it it would start. off and on my tach would not read when i would first start the car, but would work after i drive about a minute.
11.) since i may be blind and just can not see the spark, another Pelican aced me if i am sure i am getting fuel? so i tried to crank it over and over, pulled the number 4 plug,and there was no evidence on fuel.

I will take suggestions but i have some basic questions:

1.) i need to go back to the basics and determine if it is a no spark issue or no fuel issue.
a) is there a better way for me to CONFIRM i have a no spark issues other than pulling the spark plug wire and sticking a plug in it?
b.) where is the best place for me to spray starting fluid in the fuel system to see if the car will start?

2).) is there 1 item (relay, connection, etc) that can prevent fuel from getting to the cylinders and getting a spark while trying to start the car?

3.) i have had the intercooler off he car during all this. i thought i read the car should start w/ it off the car but want to conform.

let the flaming begin, but if you can help me you can flame me all you want

[speednme1]

I would check the fuel pumps first then spark. I would do this with the intercooler in place. I am by no means an expert but trying to run the car with the intercooler off would create a lean issue which in turn would not allow the car to run.

Hopefully the experts will chime in and assist you better...

[Tt surgeon]

try grounding the over boost sensor wire.

[gsmith660]

I don't understand why you would think you would get flamed? The troubleshooting steps seem sound so far if you have a dwell meter you can use that to check your dwell and you can get a tool from pelican and I suspect from the auto part store that hooks inline with your spark plug to see if you have spark. Do you have CIS? If you do pull a injector and move the air meter plate to verify gas at the injectors or if you have the CIS gauges hook them up to check pressures. If all of this is good post back for more ideas.

[gsmith660]

It should at least start without the intercooler and I agree about grounding overboost sensor and check any other sensor that interrupts spark or fuel.

[cellison]

Originally Posted by gsmith660

I don't understand why you would think you would get flamed? .

simple: i have gone down this path and now i'm going back trying to determie if it is spark or fuel which should bethe first you do.. what is puzzling is why am i finding several bad components at the same time when i had no isues before this?

I will do these things suggested. if i do spray starting fluid to see if it will start, should i spray it below the metering plate?

[gsmith660]

I have heard starting fluid is bad for these cars but I would just spray some down the throttle body since you have the intercooler off just to see if it will catch

[gsmith660]

Originally Posted by cellison

simple: i have gone down this path and now i'm going back trying to determie if it is spark or fuel which should bethe first you do.. what is puzzling is why am i finding several bad components at the same time when i had no isues before this?

I will do these things suggested. if i do spray starting fluid to see if it will start, should i spray it below the metering plate?

Maybe that is one of the reasons I am not liked on this forum anymore I don't see a problem with what you have done I have done that before myself and found I had mulitple failures causing many different problems.

[jwasbury]

Originally Posted by cellison

8.) rechecked all the connections, test the new coil wire and rotor and coil and they look ok. on the rotor, the spring extends to close the circuit and i "excersized" it. How do you really know it is working mechanically/closing the connection when the distributor shaft is turning it?
11.) since i may be blind and just can not see the spark, another Pelican aced me if i am sure i am getting fuel? so i tried to crank it over and over, pulled the number 4 plug,and there was no evidence on fuel.

Keep at it man...you will figure it out. Just a couple comments FYI.

Re: #8, the spring on the rotor is the mechanical rev limiter. It should be a closed circuit at rest, and up to a certain rpm during normal operation. Above a certain (very high) RPM, centrifugal force over comes the spring, and that part opens up and grounds out the coil high tension lead, cutting spark to the engine and hopefully stopping an over rev situation.

Re: #11, spark may me hard to see in bright light. If you have a timing light, you can hook it up the plug lead and see if it flashes...might be easier to see that looking for the blue spark jumping a gap. re: no fuel...If you did this test with the intercooler off, the fuel metering plate would not have moved at all, since no engine vacuum will pull without the intercooler in place. If the metering plate doesn't move, the injectors don't flow fuel. In fact, there is a microswitch in the fuel metering assembly. If the metering plate is at rest, the microswitch is cutting power to the fuel pumps. So in this test you describe in step 11, I would expect no fuel if you did this with the intercooler off. Pumps should not have run at all, and injectors would not fire unless metering plate was pushed manually. The only fuel that might have flowed in this test (again, assuming intercooler removed) would have been the cold start injector, but it shouldn't fire above a certain ambient temp.

Hope this helps.

[cellison]

Originally Posted by jwasbury

Keep at it man...you will figure it out. Just a couple comments FYI.

Re: #8, the spring on the rotor is the mechanical rev limiter. It should be a closed circuit at rest, and up to a certain rpm during normal operation. Above a certain (very high) RPM, centrifugal force over comes the spring, and that part opens up and grounds out the coil high tension lead, cutting spark to the engine and hopefully stopping an over rev situation.

Re: #11, spark may me hard to see in bright light. If you have a timing light, you can hook it up the plug lead and see if it flashes...might be easier to see that looking for the blue spark jumping a gap. re: no fuel...If you did this test with the intercooler off, the fuel metering plate would not have moved at all, since no engine vacuum will pull without the intercooler in place. If the metering plate doesn't move, the injectors don't flow fuel. In fact, there is a microswitch in the fuel metering assembly. If the metering plate is at rest, the microswitch is cutting power to the fuel pumps. So in this test you describe in step 11, I would expect no fuel if you did this with the intercooler off. Pumps should not have run at all, and injectors would not fire unless metering plate was pushed manually. The only fuel that might have flowed in this test (again, assuming intercooler removed) would have been the cold start injector, but it shouldn't fire above a certain ambient temp.

Hope this helps.

thanks for "splainin" things to me Jacob. re new rotor. i was actually pushing the spring forward to measure continutity betwen the tip of the rotor an front end connection. i pull the IC back on to engage the MS to see if i get fuel befro i go futher to se if i have a no fuel issue.

OFF TO THE GARAGE

[cellison]

no luck.

1.) put the IC back on and it would not start.
2.) I could now smell fuel in the garage and pulled the #4 plug and could, smell, feel and taste fuel.
3.) I went ahead and grounded the overboost switch, and had the same thing as #2.
4.) I did not pull an injector to measure fuel flow, but at this point i feel i am getting fuel.
5.) I went ahead and looked for spark again w/ the #4 plug wire pulled w/ a plug on the end, and and could not see spark with it fairly dark in the engine bay area. i did not have a timing light but I can borrow one tomorow.
6.) i went ahead and dissconected the tach from the dash and it still would not start.
7.) right now i am drinking beer.

[gsmith660]

Do you have points? Did you verify your points are making contact? Did you contact the guy that refurb'd your CDI? Can you get another CDI to check it's not that? Are you sure it's not the coil? CDI is a really simple not many components to fail, I had a condition exactly like you are describing some years ago tried changing out all the components I had on hand (I have 2 black coils) they both tested fine I don't know what I did the only thing I might have done is I took everything out and cleaned all the contacts and grounds and put it all back in and it worked. Good luck keep chugging away.

[jwasbury]

Seems pretty clear at this point that Fuel is not the issue. You need spark, and you're not getting it. CDI or coil could still be the culprit...keep working the ignition system, as it appears that is still the problem area.

Definitely no points on that car.

[oilonly]

Ignition switch? Just throwing it out there by chance.

[2369488]

I have been fighting the no start issue off and on for over a year. I have smelled fuel from the eng. compartment etc. I dont drive the car much so when I do many times the battery was low so I would have to charge it to get the car started. Even after charging it was sometimes difficult to start.
A month ago i came home from a 3 week trip and decided to go for a spirited drive. Starter turned over maybe three times and nothing. I pulled the battery out and took to the local Exide store. They tested and found one cell was bad. I replaced the battery and have had no more starting problems, whether it sits a week, two weeks hot or cold it starts right up.:

[billjam]

Charles,
Sorry I don't have any specific help for you problem, but I have been there and know how frustrating this can be. This idea might help make it easier.

One of the things that really pissed me off with the whole trouble-shooting process was having to remove and refit the intercooler each time I changed something, so I made up an intercooler bypass pipe. This allows me to run the engine and drive the car (if I tie it down so that boost doesn't blow it off!) without having to refit the IC each time I want to try and start the engine. It is all PVC plumbing fittings glued together plus a bit of judicious work with a heat gun.

[Tt surgeon]

That's a great idea!

[slyguy]

I have not read all the responses but Ive always enlisted an inductive timing light to check for spark at both plug wires and coil wires. You can get 12v power from the rear relay panel and see the light while youre cranking the engine.

[afterburn 549]

No one is going to "FLAME" you
That section is at the bottom of the topics here

[Miguel Antonett]

Originally Posted by billjam

Charles,
Sorry I don't have any specific help for you problem, but I have been there and know how frustrating this can be. This idea might help make it easier.

One of the things that really pissed me off with the whole trouble-shooting process was having to remove and refit the intercooler each time I changed something, so I made up an intercooler bypass pipe. This allows me to run the engine and drive the car (if I tie it down so that boost doesn't blow it off!) without having to refit the IC each time I want to try and start the engine. It is all PVC plumbing fittings glued together plus a bit of judicious work with a heat gun.

Clever!!!