Request: Rear Torsion Bars - Remedial Re-indexing 101 for Dummies
 

As winter wanes and spring teases us, my POS inches closer toward touching ground (still a solid and depressing 4-6wks off). The thought of which is both titillating and terrifying, simultaneous.

Giddification @ the prospect of seeing & running all my Winter While You're In There* maniacism in action.

*(There being the kerofume'd GARAGE all fookin winter - wut braincellz?)

Frightening to finally lay witness upon egg zachary what I have done. Lost in a daze of Pelican Classified binge surfing and Pelican Horse Trading (don't ask, I've been on a delirious petrol filled rampage - cabin fever I s'pose?), I'm recalling my rear suspension still somewhat ala Rancho after my '09 corner balance / alignment job @ Musante (then there's the fact of "will the 255's rub / is front fender rolling in mah future??? Lalalalalala>fingersinears<not going there yet).

Story at the time went "yeah the weights came out great but your ride height in the rear didn't change much - everything was too frozen to feck with... you can fix it by throwing your kids' pittance-esque college accounts at the problem by buying all our shinyneubits and we'll be allllll tooooo happpppy to play Bob as your Uncle". Something like that at least.

So... present day... my heap resides hovering upon jackstands, each day a new hurdle won. Finally removed front hubs last night and pounded out / in longer studs (that was - um - 'fun') and got to test hang the wheels. Rears studs pounded out, rotors 'n ebrakes apart (so THAT's what that rubbing was back there... little ebrake shoe pube spring sprung off), ready to re-ASSemble.

Which brings me to tomorrow's quandary: the prospect of running all this uberness (should Spring ever opt to do such here in sunny CT) @ Rancho rear height elicits fears of fender gap'age... exacerbated by Ronnieapproved 295/35/18s.

Reallyreally old pics for reference from 100000yr ago CB / lowering day after, as all posts should - well - have pics:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_...o/IMG_5772.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-U...o/IMG_5753.JPG

Not terrible, but...

So - I've searched and read re-index'ing the rear bars results in the desired effect - AND - without muff'in the corner balance specs. Wasn't 'zactly relishing prospect of paying for THAT again (chaCHING - pass). So THAT sounds like JUST the ticket!

That said... all the great references of "just clock them 4 splines inner / 4 splines outer" (JimboF!) might as well be typed in like Arabic or Sandscrit or Ebonics or something.

Might someone be so kind as to out stretch a hand and guide my feebleness into ze light and enlighten me proppah? Pics too would be quite the treat! If shop claimed "uh, like, your stuff's like too um frozen and stuff or something"... is this something my Beavisness (or even / more aptly my Buttheadedness) can / should be able to do?

Car's up and 1/2 apart anywayz, what's another ginormous project stacked thickly upon the other 19 simultaneous shiitshows I got goin on right?

Feel free to relegate replies in "See Spot Run" format, riddled with much deserved ridicule and insult. It's encouraged, and appreciated!

Thanks gents.

Are you trying to lower your car? I doubt you want to raise it. One end of the bar is a little bigger diameter than the other so there's more splines on the bigger diameter end of the bar than the other. I havn't messed with them in years now so I don't remember how many or the ratio.
You'll have to experiment with it.

If you rotate or index only one end of the bar one spline the car will rise or drop more than an inch so you go one spline lower on one end and one spline higher on the other end and because each end is a little different diameter the ride hight changes gradually that way.

To get it where you want it you may end up going one or two splines one way on one end and two or more splines the other way on the other end. It takes time experimenting with it and you have to drive the car a little way to get the wheel cambers to settle out after setting it back down on the ground. I hope that makes sense.

Dayum Paul, it's a crying shame you don't still have the above wheel/tire combo on yer car! Does that help (probably about as much as this - http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/fa...rt-in-face.gif)?

Thanks Jim! Sadly, that much I GET! It's the "how to" / "what to" I'm clueless about. Like, step two... remove "xyz" (step 1 obbbbviously being... crack bier). Yes, LOWER - silly - my registration for Dakkar was late, so I won't be RAISING it... this year.

Ronalot... jah... I gazed upon that pic as it posted and semi sorta kinda had that exact sentiment. Sigh. 265 CUMho's... FTMFW. If they'd not nuked them I'd have kept them. Alas... tires for them 9's are going (have gone) by way of the dinosaur... no way I was going back to 245's. Nope.

FikseFuchs are in my future, some day. Nearly had this set sold and would have done exactly that now, but... well... no comment (Ed I knooooooooooow you're reading this you fukking STALKER - prolly outside peerin in mah curtains?).

Alas, I'm embracing running the Fikse's... no exaggeration... they're near p*rnograffix jewelry. Soooooooooooo niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice. Just that... ride height has never been so important. Helps take out the cartoonish factor of 18s... set right... that's a non-issue. Rancho highlights it, I'm keenly aware (hence the terrification factor and seekance of how to Use the Force to do this endeavor!).


ps. Ronnie:

http://editorial.designtaxi.com/news...er221013/1.jpg

While I don't agree with the statement that your CB won't change (your rear alignment too) but there are a few things to watch out for... Sometimes the TB can get stuck, rust/corrosion, sometimes they slip out with little effort, one of mine was easy, the other was stuck pretty good. I didn't want to cut the shark fins, so it made it harder to get them out. I ended up lowering mine a tad, then put it back because my driveway has a curb that really doesn't like lowered cars.

Mark where they were originally pretty good so when a stuck one pops out and turns on you you'll be able to set it back where you started for reference. When you pull them check for any rub marks/scratches/rust on the painted bars. Re-lube em up really good and they'll be easy to pop in and out later.

Oh.. you remove the spring plate to do that. 4 bolts on the spring plate cover. The outer female splines are inside it. while it's removed you can slide out the torsion bar and while it's just touching the inner splines you can feel the splines bump over each other one spline at a time as you carefully rotate it while holding it lightly against the inner splines.
The torsion bars and splines should be smeared with grease so they don't rust.

You can mark a male outer spline with a hammer and center punch. If you do that don't hit the punch real hard or the spline will be widened and it won't want to penetrate and slide into the female splines... and if that does happen you can redress the sides of the male spline with a thin file.

Hope I don't get busted for posting this:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1393995351.jpg

1: jack up rear and place on jack stands, be sure you are not using the torsion bar covers as the jack stand support point.
2: remove tire
3: remove 4 bolts (30,31) from cover watch our for falling spacers (32)
(this is where mine is a little different because I have the early one piece style spring plates, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong)
4: remove bolts/nuts washer (18,19,20,17)
(now I'm assuming that the top piece of 16 will wiggle off to expose the torsion bar - otherwise you remove all the adjustment bolts, therefore bugger up your alignment and CB- someone again please chime in, on mine you remove the whole spring plate (16) as it's only one piece)
5: grab Torsion Bar (28) with tips of fingers and with super human strength (just in the tips mind you) pull out the TB until splines disengage from inner splines.

Someone please verify my steps 4 & 5...

I forgot to state that in the middle of all that you notice how oblong shaped your 20+ year old bushings are and you head to the ER or RR site to drop more coin...

According to the tech article on this site, if you are not lowering too much, and you have a later model 911, you dont have to remove the torsion bar:

Pelican Technical Article: Lowering the 911 - 911 (1965-89) - 930 Turbo (1975-89)

If you have a later model 911, then you’re in luck, as you don’t have to remove the torsion bar covers and radius arms to get at least some degree of adjustment. On these cars, the radius arms were equipped with an adjustment screw. To raise or lower the rear of the car, simply loosen the large nut and bolt closest to the torsion bar. Then rotate the other bolt located next to it. This bolt is eccentric, and will cause the rear of the car to be raised or lowered as you turn it. Adjust the height as described previously, and then tighten the bolt located nearest to the torsion bar. Make sure that you don’t touch the two nuts located towards the rear of the car: these adjust the toe-in and the camber for the rear suspension, and should only be adjusted by a trained professional using an alignment rack.

This seems much easier than removing a stubborn torsion bar, no?
In infraredcalvins diagram, it looks like bolt #18 is the eccentric bolt that does the adjustment.

So my questions are: What is "later model"? I have an 88 and Paul has an 87.
How much can you lower it without removing the torsion bars? I would like to go about an inch lower.
Do I need a bump steer kit if I only lower it about an inch?

Hi there,

In short - #18 is eccentric and does allow for the height to change. Unfortunately, most cars are already adjusted at the bottom end of the adjustment range. I initially attempted to lower the rear of my car by adjusting the eccentric only to find mine, like many other owners, was bottomed out. I'm not saying yours is, but it is likely to be that way. The eccentric is really more ideal for making minor adjustments once you properly index the torsion bars on the rear for the ride height you want. I have read in various threads regarding the rear setting that it is advisable to set the adjustment range of the eccentric towards the middle of its range when indexing the torsion bar. Once your car's height is set the way you want it, this will give the technician who aligns your car some adjustability on that eccentric to be able to balance out the car.

As for the front adjuster - you can go lower of course but take a look at your tie rods. The ideal angle while sitting on level ground is for the tie rods to be sitting parallel to the ground. If they are angled upwards due to a lowered ride height, this is when you begin to see bump-steer. - A cheap solution is to shim the steering rack upwards using the bump steer kits that are sold through Pelican and other locations. It's not particularly hard to do and the kit is under $30. It's basically thick shims and longer mounting bolts.

Hope this helps.

Chris.

Thanks Chris. Helps a lot.

I will be doing this and then bringing to the shop for an alignment. (that is, if it ever stops snowing here)

I guess I will see how the tie rods look once I'm done and get the bump steer kit if I need it.

My '79 has stock adjustable spring plates. I had about an inch of height adjustment using the eccentric bolt. Your camber changes as the height does. I don't remember if the toe also changes. If your car was previously corner balanced and you adjusted both rear sides the same then the corner balance, would be close, but the front/rear weight will change.
The Porsche 911 alignment pdf. is a great reference.
After you've finished the back,then you need to check the front as it will be affected.
I made a set of Smart Strings and attached them to the car to check the front & rear toe. Also get a camber gauge. Everything is affected.

Paulito, based on Harold's/gumbs's post above, and on your stated unwillingness to spend the REST of your children's (how did you ever convince anyone to accept your seed - drugs, witchcraft, violence?) future college tuition, might I suggest that you forego the "desperate attempt to make the wagon wheels work" slam-job, and instead, enter your newly shod car in the next Paris Dakar Rally? http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/ev...y-emoticon.gif

PS: thanks for the bird - as you say, always appreciated! http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/rude/1/pissed.gif

The 25 year old rubber trailing arm bushings have cold flowed, changed shape a little, and taken a set in their position by now.

When I did this yes I completely removed the spring plate and didn't touch the big ride hight eccentric bolt that needs a super thin open end wrench to access. I marked the position of the bolts that go through the spring plate and trailing arm with a fresh pointed sharpie pen and scribe so they could be put back where they were.

The old rubber trailing arm bushings had a memory and they wanted to position the trailing arms so the spring plate bolts would back where they were in the trailing arms. That made that easier.

Now I have replaced them with monoballs in the trailing arms and elephant racing polybronze bushings in the spring plates so there is no old rubber bushing memory and the rear suspension is much more flexible. I do my own alignments with strings, tape measures and a digital angle gauge..
I also have tarret adjustable rod end rear sway bar drop links and urethane bushings for the sway bar.

Thanks much for the hand holding so far, gals! Mucho appreciatto.

Is the ride height eccentric bolt Jeff / Chris / Jimbo references #18 in the diagram above?

So, let us ASSume "something" is frozen that the race shop couldn't budge, as either A) things were really frozen, or (more likely?) II) they wanted to sell me some stuff and/or didn't want to be bothered w/ such Tomfoolery (if it were Joefoolery I'm sure they'd have made an exception).

What's frozen? The bar / splines? So... if so... what's the DIY Fecal Touch solution?? Torch the tube and spray the beejeebus out of it best you can??? And then???? (NOANDTHEN!!!!)

I am already bumpsteer'd up front, thanks for the mention tho.

I definitely don't want to slam it, just want to dial in some SQUAT like seemingly evvvvvvvvvvveryyyyyyyyyyone ELSE manage's do rock - as seen har:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-J...o/IMG_6964.JPG

DAYUM ^that^ is just sexxxxxxxxxxxxx... >shudders<. I'm tired of my 'rake' and it'll look tits AND nipples w/ the Profil 5 18s... once the proppah ride height is achieved. Despite the ignoramus maximus of, well... you now.



ps. Ronalittle... what can I say? Chics dig me.

OK, realistically my fewlish wife didn't know any better at the time when we got together she was 17 and I was rockin a Westybus. 24yrs later and I've got what my friends refer to as "Devil's Spawn"... which is odd as they are (thankfully) really amazing kids and are nothhhhhhing like I was (is) growing up (shiithead). Phew.

Yes it's #18 and the head is super thin and there's no room for a regular open end there because the chassis is so close to it there. You'll see if you look at it on your car.
Also, if you loosen it you may not tighten it enough afterwards and it will come loose. It takes an extra thin open end to acces it and mechanics I know won't touch it, they adjust ride hight by reindexing torsion bar splines.

Along with all this I have Weltmiester adjustable spring plates so I can adjust rear ride hight or rear corner balance in seconds with an 8mm allen head wrench... it's so nice.
Got them on sale for around $300 from a u t o m o t i o n 6 or 7 years ago and sold the stock springplates quickly on pelican classifieds.

thanks Jimm'er... $375 shipped today :rolleyes:

Soooooo... "just" (famous last words) remove mine, slap those on, and dial away? No initial clocking of the tbars required? While sounds too good to be true... it looks like that setscrew just dials that cam... so... giddeup!

http://c767170.r70.cf2.rackcdn.com/RP910159.jpg

Soitenly not worth dickin around the caveman way then, uh uh. Look pretty simple to install, no? (even for me!)

*their site says fitment for '69-'86... "won't fit an '87".... uhhh, guessing that's wrong?*

How fekk'dup will my alignment be after (yeah I know it'll "change" touching anything, but if it can be 'mostly preserved' until $$$ permits an eventual CB/align - that's what I'm ax'in). If I marked things up etc. OK, I know the answer to that question... just sucks to go have to spend that assload of crink on that - again.

Recall what you sold yer bits for? I'm alllll over ze horse trades, fersure...

When installing the weltmiester spring plates I indexed the splines so there would be a 1/4" gap where the allen bolt is when they are installed at my ride hight. That way I have plenty of adjustment range left.
Use an angle gauge on each spring plate before removing them and when all the bolts are removed and install the new ones at the same free angle.

There is no eccentric cam bolt on the weltmiesters.

I sold my original springplates with the rubber bushings on them for $75. 6 or 7 years ago. I could have gotten more for them, especially these days. I see them sell for around $125 now, maybe a little more if you wait it out.

I'm not quite getting it, but did a shop actually tell you it was frozen?

If you can get one side out you can pound out the other side by inserting a bar (thinner OD than the inner splines) and hammer away. If it is in fact "frozen" it's prob because it's rusted in there which would be advisable to get them out anyway and relube everything. Last thing you want is for them to break while in there. As for getting out a stuck one, you just need to grab on to it and keep working it, leverage with jaws , anything, pound in a bit to break lose , etc.

Removing and replacing the spring plates will really mess up your alignment. Adjustment is with the eccentric bolts 25 & 26 above. It's really hard to mark them and try to get them back where they were.

I'm in. I can't wait to see a post like this from Paul.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1341089997.jpg

Excellent insight as always, gentz. Good to know on the spring plate resale, that helps.

Yes Pat, "frozen" was exactly what this race shop told me.

I wouldn't at all be surprised tho unfortunately if my suspicion proved correct that they didn't want to work too hard on that challenge - just wanted to do a CB/align and send me on my way - or - sell me some $$$ parts creating more work for them. Kindasorta sadly their MO.

OK, armed w/ enough info to be dangerous... I'll set about this endeavor. Honey, cover the kids' ears - the profanity train's a-comin!

HEY NOW!!!

We don't joke about FIRE 'round these here parts no more!!! That shiit ain't funny.

But if we did... it'd more likely be this coming from me:

http://us.123rf.com/450wm/lineartest...ir-on-fire.jpg

I'm that awesome remember - never forget.

A good race shop can spend 4-8 hrs setting a suspension up. You change something in the back, and it affects the front. You make the changes, put the car on the ground, roll it back and forth a few times to settle the suspension( this is where having the Smart Strings really comes into play), add in a couple of wtf's, and have at it again. It just takes time.
If you don't want to do the work yourself, I'd find a shop that does Porsche racecar setup and have them do it, they know what they're in for. The procedure is the same, just not as radical.

If your in the "more time than money camp" (I'm a member), get the 911 alignment. pdf, make up a Smart String set up and get some type of camber gauge and have at it. If it's a street car, corner balancing isn't necessary.

I bought a cheap wrench, used my trusty grinder to thin it down to the right thickness. After I've done suspension work I go drive it around, put it back on the lift, re check the camber, and re-check all the bolts.

The only drawback to the adjustable spring plates is less room in the wheel well.

Thanks Harold - that's defffffffffffinitely me too. Problem is I'm more time than skillz 8-/.

I'll give that .pdf a look - got a link or could you email to me? s8editor at s-cars dot org

Will these "Sway Away" units work? Seem to be clones of the Welt's? Or are the Welt's better somehow?

Porsche 911 Adj Spring Plates New Bushings Sway A Way | eBay

Assuming these aren't Turbo specific, just G50 or not G50? Hence why Welt's site said these wouldn't work on my '87? Just a guess...

Weltmiester and sway away spring plates are the same thing.
Mine said sway away on them and thats a good price for them but those red urethane bushings have a ton of stiction making them hard to move up and down.

Put in the elephant racing polybronze spring plate bushings made for the sway away springplates ($335 when i bought them) and they move freely up and down, come with grease fittings, and don't flex like rubber and change alighnment when cornering.

Paul,
I sent you the pdf twice. Not sure the first one is complete.

Got one email from you Harold, 12pg'er - looks complete. Thanks hugely, very cool of you.

Awesome Jim... appreciate that confirmation. I suspected as much but wanted to confirm. Again, assuming these aren't Turbo specific and these are the right ones.

$322.74 shipped... done. Schwing!

Polybronze... um... baby steps... baby steps. Maybe next year. Will deal w/ the stiff squeaky inferior bits fer now.

Feeling entiiiiiiiiiirely better about my 18s right now!! Ranchoness was a maaaaajor thorn in me arse... not that mine was terrible, but the lower profile tires were definitely going to make it pronounced and that'd have bugged me to no end.

Again, thanks all for the handholding (awwwww, isn't that sweet?)... stay tooned for install debacles surely to ensue (ain't easy bein me)...

Yeh, there is NO WAY IN CREATION you are going to retain your alignment OR corner balance...period. Unfortunatly you will need to pay for all of that again, end of story.

That being said, it really is not difficult to do the spline shuffle...lots of trial-n-error, you will need to be able to have the car on the ground after each "adjustment", as you need to bounch the car & roll it back-n0forth after each adjustment in order to settle the suspension.
Even then the car will settle once driven on the street.

Best of luck.

Mark

i highly recomend marking your starting position on e spring plate with a magic marker before changing anything. you may be able to get the adjustment you need just by adjusting the bolts and plate without changing the torsion bar position.

if you are going to adjust the bars i also highly recommend taking an angle measurement on the springplate and write it down, then make measured adjustments.

duly noted John, armed w/ Harold's .pdf instruction file I hope to at least par to a scratch alignment then schedule the CB/align later in the spring or so

yes Mark, I'm done deluding mesself 8-)

OE plates sold via classifieds, 1:22min, $140 shipped 8-)

JFairman:

How hard was it to do the monoball on the banana arm? I am about to embark on a full 935 suspension on my car and this is one piece I am replacing.

I haven't seen much in the way of replacing the trailing arm bushing. I'm assuming the pain in life involves getting the old one out - with the monoball not being to hard to go back in?

Chris.

It's not hard, I did it without removing the emergency brake cables or the trailing arms from the car while the back end was up on jackstands... just like how I'm currently rebuilding the entire top end of my motor with the motor in the car and lowered down a foot on to a jackstand in my driveway.. Lots of crawling around on your side under the car.

There are good instructions for replacing trailing arm, springplate, or any other suspension bushings with pictures on the elephant racing website. They may be in PDF format or maybe they're plain old html format I don't remember but they are there... just find them and click on them.

I installed sealed rennline monoballs front and rear but installing them is the same. Also installed elephant racing polybronze bushings in the springplates and front control arms. Made a nice difference. Car rides smoother with sharper steering response. I do my own corner balance and alignments too.

So I decided to tackle this today. Bolts 18 and 19 above are total buggers to get off. Do I have to? Can I just remove the 4 bolts pictured below with green and red arrows and take the whole radius arm off, or is it a much better idea to find a way to get 18 and 19 off? Car is on jackstands and my appt for an alignment is the 18th, so I have to get this done before then. Any help appreciated!



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1394406089.jpg

Hey Jeff-

Na mon, those stay on

careful, my bars popped out w/my plates

had to drill & pop out the end caps, and tap the bars through - not terribly hard, just an added step

cut off / melt off the bushings while you're in there and go w/ new ones

w/ my bars dangling I'm now toying w/ the thought of going stiffer - seems silly to CB & align again and install the OE bars, only to maybe / possibly have to do it again down the road when / if I upgrade

dunno yet

good luck w/ yours

The bolts at the green arrows are for camber & toe adjustment, You don't need to remove them. Just removing the bolts at the red & yellow arrows will work. You will need to get the the bolts at the green arrows loose to readjust the suspension. Don't forget to mark everything before you remove it.

Thanks for the clarification. Yellow arrows are off already and the red ones are loosened, so I will be able to get them off no problem.

Paul, I have read not to replace that bushing if it isnt necessary because the replacement one isn't as good. What is your reason for saying to replace it? I dont want to make a mistake there.

Now, this paragraph is out of the Pelican tech article for removing the TB's:

Before you remove any of the bolts that hold the radius arm to the trailing arm, lower the trailing arm until the tension from the torsion bar exerted on the radius arm decreases. There should be a point to where radius arm can be lowered, where the torsion bar will not exert any force on it. At this point, all of the spring will be taken out of the torsion bar so that there is no tension at all on the trailing arm/radius arm assembly. You may have to use trial and error, and raise and lower the rear trailing arm a few times to find the right height where there will be no tension from the torsion bar. It’s important to relieve any tension on the radius arm before you disconnect the bolts that attach it to the trailing arm. Otherwise, the radius arm may spring back violently when you remove the last bolt that attaches it to the trailing arm.

Pelican Technical Article: Replacing/Upgrading Torsion Bars - 911 (1965-89) - 930 Turbo (1975-89)


I know what they are saying, but I have no idea how I am going to know if the TB is unsprung or not until I remove all the bolts. Any helpful hints? Do I need to diconnect the shock from the trailing arm to do this?

Harold, what is in the pdf? I am getting ready to lower the rear on my 87 slant.

Jeff,

Yours is an early 911 correct? Regardless, you have the earlier 1 piece spring plates, you need to remove the camber and toe bolts (green arrows). You'll also want to be sure the suspension/ torsion fully unloaded or you'll chew up the threads on the bolts...

Remove the shock, fully extend the trailing arm, and let the spring come to rest (most likely on one of the spacers where the yellow bolts mount. Mark the angle of the spring plate on the inner wheel well with a pencil or something similar. You should be able to wiggle off the spring plate at this point. Doesn't have to be super exact, but get it close. When you rotate splines the new angle is much different that you'll notice.

As for the bushing, you'll probably see that it's pretty worn and all squished to one side, they are bonded to the trailing arm while new ones are not, so there are some arguments as to what is the better program. Regardless, if they are original the replacements will be better than what you have, you will see when you look at them.