930 1st Engine Drop & Trans R&R
 

A month ago when going for a short drive my transmission would not shift into 2nd gear without signs of grinding so I immediately coasted into a parking lot and had it towed on a flatbed back to my garage. I suspected something within 2nd gear syncro failed especially since several years ago I felt the shift lever "popped out of gear" when I let the clutch out not having 2nd gear fully engaged. Since that happened it continued to shift fine so I did not give another thought except for changing the transmission oil just to be safe and there were no metal debris on the drain plug magnet.

There are several goals with R&R of the transmission: determine the ratio of the R&P (not sure if it's stock), change current short 2nd thru 4th gears to taller gears and replace broken/worn syncro parts. Regarding the engine I will check valve clearance and dry seal the top of engine even though it looks pretty dry within the "triangle of death".

I have decided after researching this site on best method of dropping the engine and that is to lower the engine/trans onto the dolly with car partially off the floor then raise the rear of the car just high enough to bring the engine/trans out. I felt this is the safest method considering that I'll be doing everything myself with no help.

Here's one modification the PO had done to make it easier to drop the engine/trans. There's no need to keep the shift shaft centered within the tunnel cutout while dropping the engine.


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Pictures of furniture dolly with plywood and misc wood pieces to support engine. I also used a strip of a carpet to prevent the engine from sliding around.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422229448.jpg

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Getting ready for engine drop. Jack engine dolly board up to engine and 2nd jack to front of transmission then remove engine and trans bolts.

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Since the jack would be "trapped" by a dolly I placed 2x4 under the rear castor wheels so as to be able to drop the dolly to the floor then remove the jack. Then I jack the rear portion of the dolly up slightly to free up the 2x4's then lowered the jack.

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continued...

Engine is balanced on the dolly so the 2nd jack at transmission can be removed.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422230267.jpg


Here's how the car sits on jacks with engine on dolly.

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Now jack up the rear of car using jack pads and roll engine/trans out.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422230337.jpg

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After engine/trans is rolled out I lowered the car back down to the jack stands.

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Required photo of myself being proud and relieved.

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continued...

Photo of "triangle of death". It does not have signs of bad leak.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422230747.jpg


Closeup photos of engine support on dolly.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422230765.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422230779.jpg


Separating transmission from engine.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422230797.jpg

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I'm not sure what stage this KEP clutch is. I suspect stage 1 since the clutch pedal is not too stiff. Is there a way to find out? I will remove the pressure plate to inspect the clutch.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422230842.jpg


Transmission standing on dolly before and after cleanup. This is where I'm at for now. I will tear down the transmission sometime later this week or next.

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Cool, I'm thinking of doing something similar soon, I'll borrow some ideas!

noice MikeD! Well done!

congrats on the progress

Yes, yer triangle 'o death doesn't have signs of a bad leak... because it looks like it already did. The swaged breather hose has already been swapped for a regular hose, and the gaskets / o-ring likely already done. Sweet.

You got some interesting bits on there. What's that oil pump, and wonder why they went aftermarket?

Awesome oil filter in lieu of the cooler, pretty slick.

I will be closely following your trans R&R progress. I don't think I've got the bauls (unlike Ronknees, his mouth is FULL OF 'EM) to DIY it, buuuuuuutt (<-----Ronknees' fave, "in the"), maybe I'll grow the courage to tackle mine pending your results.

Mine can shift w/o any grind, every shift - if I'm very deliberate. I often get grinding trying to grab 1st on the fly (these cars REALLY demand it, when you're able to execute it sans grind) despite my best double declutching efforts.

I get some protest if I try to downshift into 2nd w/ too much speed, double declutching helps but sometimes it still does.

And it grinds from neutral into 1st while @ a stop if I'm not careful, that one's a pisser.

I'd lovvvvvvve to remedy, and do the clutch whilst at it.

Keep up the good werk., dewdius...

Look real close on the fingers of the diagram. It should be stamped what stage the clutch is.

It's definitely a stage I. Mine is a II, and it's very hard to push in.

Excellent work, Mike!

Now regarding the "Trans R&R" portion of yer title - Paul once tried to R&R his desire to go "trans", but just gave up the self-ANALysis (gave up the psychological, but NOT the physical - he's still dedicated to that as(s)pect!) and gave over to his inner woman!!!

O geez!

You have lots of cool things on your car/engine etc. I like that handy dropout plate for easy trans drop. Must make one of those. And the aftermarket oil pump. What's that? Looks like a clewet rpm sensor? Jealous of your intake and seemingly lack of leaks. If it ain't broke don't fixit.
ALS interested in the trans condition.
If you could can you take lots of pictures of the shift forks and such while in there? Before you disassemble I mean.

http://www.arktrust.org/g18web/g18web-Images/12.jpg

Nice work...BTW strong resemblance to James Cromwell

Drop me a line when you figure out what you want to do for ratios. I've got some pretty tall 935/962 OE used gears that are just kind of gathering dust. I would sell them for much less than the $1000ea my new aftermarket gears go for.

Regards,

Matt

+1
I thought the same thing, but a younger version.
I used a Sears motorcycle jack to drop mine. By raising my car to 29 inches (measured under the center reflector) I could lower the jack and remove the powertrain. I only mention this because since I was doing engine work, I could lift the engine up high enough for myself and 3 assistants to easily (a relative term in this instance) pick the engine off the jack and place it on the engine stand.
If I was only doing tranny work I would have saved myself $100 and done it Mike's way.

NICE PICS:)


Walt

Chris, good to know that this thread gives you some ideas.

Paul, you can DO IT...just take your time to figure out the engine base support for engine support on a dolly (use thick cardboards across bottom of exhaust headers and tape ruler to determine thickness blocks to fill in gaps along center and front portion of engine case) and mentally picture how you want to drop the engine/trans. Make sure you disconnect everything...again take your time. I spent 4 weeks (off and on not every day) for an hour or two at a time removing rear bumper, disconnecting everything and measure/fab the engine base then committed to drop the engine.

GJF, thanks...I'll take a close look.

Tippy, I'd agree.

Ronnie, thanks. I'm not sure how Paul will rebut what you said! ;)

quatto, the turbo oil scavenger pump is made by Powertech. It does not have a rpm sensor like a Clewett pump has. I will take lots of pics before and during disassembly.

Scott, hmm...I'm not sure if that's a compliment! haha

Matt, I'll let you know what gearing I'll be looking for.

PaulB, I've considered buying an ATV jack but figured why not make use of what I got.

Walt, thanks!

MikeD!

Thanks fer the encouragement... where were you 9mos ago when I was droppin my motor sans 4weeks measuring disconnecting etc.?

I think I was afforded a collective 4min before my idjut buds and me had the fukker on the floor.

For better or werserer, that is 8-).

Hey Mike, did you do ALL THAT yourself - you said?

Looking good!

Prrrrrrreeeeettycool!

Paul, I'm not sure how I missed your thread on the engine drop. Can you link your thread? For some reason I thought you never done this?!? So...scratch that "you can DO it" for the engine drop but you can DO IT for gearbox rebuild (take that Ronnie...no more mentioning trans...whoops...it slipped...my bad!). lol

Miguel, yes sir...I did everything by myself except for taking the photos!

^^^

Mike here is a link to Paul's comedy of errors (and some cool stuff, too - hardy har har), and you're right, Paul can DEFINITELY do "trans"!!!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/806068-cabin-fever-prevailed-yet-schpring-cometh-current-status.html

Ha! I just noticed that you posted in that thread, so you MUST have been aware of it! You didn't drop the engine on yer head when you removed it, did you?!?!?!

Hey thanks for that link! Now I remember Paul's crazy multi-tasking effort on his 930 last year. Wow...great job Paul!! Yeah...my ordeal dropping the engine short circuited my memory! Seriously...I remember now that Paul said in another threads about never tearing down a tranny (not that "trans"!).

Today I took a close look at a clutch and found two cracks so it will have to be replaced. I suspect this would cause the clutch not to fully disengage causing problem shifting. I remember thinking "how light the clutch felt" just when the transmission would not go into gear.

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Back side of pressure plate does not look bad but it's no use anyway due to cracks in the spring plate.

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Clutch side of Kevlar disc...it's pretty worn.

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Flywheel side of Kevlar disc...there's no wear! I find this to be odd.

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I still cannot find what the stage no. this KEP clutch is. Below is a close up shot of the KEP logo and one of a crack.

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Photo of flywheel. It looks good but am debating whether to have it cut for new clutch. My thinking is yes it does...am I correct?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422413158.jpg

Kind of looks like mine......Stage 1....tough to say for sure though.....http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422416099.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422416126.jpg

great thread and perfect timing.

once I finish installing the new clutch in my 951 track/DE car, this will be the first thing I do to begin my refresh of my 78 930 clone.

I'll be following your progress.

I dismantled the transmission today. The toughest part was figuring out how to lock the gears in order to remove the pinion and drive shaft nuts. Normally a special tool or modified clutch disc locked down at the bell housing shaft is used but I have neither and did not want to "damage" the removed clutch disc. I've read somewhere you could engage both two gears at same time but I did not want to risk damage not knowing whether this would work or not. Final option is to use idler reverse gear with gearbox in 4th gear. Apparently the shaft for idler reverse gear is pressed fit into the removed front cover which I did not want to mess with. One could make a custom shaft (one end is smaller than the main shaft) using a lathe. Again I don't have a lathe and didn't want to spend more time designing and subcontracting out machining. So I was able to place and hold the idler reverse gear by hand (depend on which nut is being removed determine which side the idler gear is placed on) and loosened the nuts (with trans set in 4th gear) using an impact wrench. Take your own risk if you want to use my method!

Front cover removed. Note idler shaft being part of front cover.

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Below are the tricks I used to loosen the shaft nuts. These photos were taken after this was accomplished.

Placement of idler reverse gear for removing the pinion shaft nut (large reverse gear). Gearbox is upside down.

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Placement of idler reverse gear for removing the input/drive shaft nut (small reverse gear). Gearbox is upside down.

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Removed large reverse gear. Gearbox right side up.

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Center case removed.

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Checked for selector rods lined up...Checked good.

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I found that 1st/2nd gear fork was not centered! Its gear selector rod is centered within the detent. No wonder why 2nd gear syncros would grind easily if I'm not patient and firm when shifting into 2nd gear especially during downshifting.

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3rd/4th gear fork is fairly centered.

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continue...

Removed gearbox assembly on bench in order of each component removed (beginning shown on right to left of photo).

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Close up photo of 1st gear syncro. Dog teeth are not too worn. Syncro ring looks half worn.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422761647.jpg


Close up photo of 2nd gear syncro. Excessive wear on dog teeth. Look how rounded they are! Syncro ring looks half worn.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422761664.jpg


Close up photo of 3rd gear syncro. Some wear on dog teeth (beginning signs of hooked teeth). Syncro ring looks half worn. Note chipped/missing surface. I'm not sure if this was defective since new.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422761681.jpg


Close up photo of 4th gear syncro. Same condition as 3rd gear syncro. Syncro ring has some wear.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422761695.jpg


Close up photo of 1st/2nd slider.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422761709.jpg


Close up photo of 3rd/4th slider.

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This is where I'm at for now. I will be dismantling each gear syncros over the next few days. Hopefully, I don't expect to see anything wrong. Looks like I'll need to replace all syncro parts (syncro rings, sliders and syncro hubs). I would like to skip replacing 3rd/4th gear slider and syncro hub (at least replace syncro rings). But I suppose it's best to replace everything and not worry about opening the gearbox again.

Great photos.

I'm a believer... Good job Mike!!!

^^^Hey thanks guys.

Quatto...hope the photos of how the gear selector forks were lined up help you out. The 1st/2nd gear selector fork was off!!!

Excellent work / descriptions / photos, MikeD! Very helpful, well done.

How "hard / complicated" would you rate this overall? Any special tools / expertise required, or just basic mechanical acumen?

Any projected cost guesstimation of what you'll be looking at for those intended bits?

Any idea what route yer goin for clutch yet?

Again, I am verrrrrrry closely watchin you here... while I don't at all exactly relish the thought of droppin my drivetrain again, I'm somewhat actually considering it pending your results here.

Slippyish clutch / grindyish box somewhat temper driving enjoyment certainly...

Paul...I'd say the effort to disassemble the gearbox is easy to medium. No special tools were needed up to this point. I used 1/2" drive impact wrench with 30mm and 36mm impact sockets to loosen the shaft nuts. In my case a gear puller was not even needed to pull the gears/bearings (after removing the center case). Just make note of how everything was taken apart and place each removed parts in chronological order in area where no one (i.e. kids and curious adults) can mess with.

I figure it would cost around $2k just for the sycros parts and $1.5k for the clutch kit (KEP stage 1 w/Kevlar disc). But am looking into having my KEP clutch rebuilt. Plus I'm also looking into changing the gearing. It currently has short 2nd-4th gears and I want to make the gearing taller.

Here's a pic of my gearbox after removing all gears and components. Note there's no need to remove the shafts since its R&P, bearings and seals does not need to be addressed.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1422830366.jpg

Paul if you do decide to R&R your GEARBOX resist the temptation to glue these offending bits, from your last year's thread, back in place (No JB Weld, but on second thought, maybe blue RVT will do ya' right, though?)!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-d...516_001149.jpg

Mike, again well done!

eeeek - still $3k and DIY

awesome

thanks fer the feedback, tho - very helpful and insightful

Yeah Ronnie... I'm gonna fersuredly RTVWeld the busted gearbox oil pump hose nozzle grabber ear into my transmission. Einstein.

The displaced synchro toof, on the otherhand...........

http://i.imgur.com/Ff2TPng.gif

^bwhahahaa^

man, those just keep getting more betterer!

Got your pm but am traveling and cannot reply on my damn iPhone. Will get to you tomorrow.

-Matt

Matt...hey no problem. Looking forward to hear from you.


Paul...looks like your polishing tool is imitating Einstein. :)

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/73...32f6608044.jpg

heh, that's funny MikeD! We both got kittens ~ same time then, eh? Great shot.

Mine typically sprawl across my keyboard while I'm trying to work... PITA.

I found my pair weren't particularly helpful in fixing my gearbox - either must only be good for affixing roofs to cabs, or I didn't use enough JBWeld / RTV?

Hmm...I should have noted that I "stole" the pic from google. BTW, when I was a kid we had a female cat that would have litters which we gave away when they were old enuf. Fun times!

Sorry haven't had a chance to comment on the photos much but they're very helpful and informative.
I'm not as fluid and smart as mikeD. I have finally figured out that voodo magic crap inside that gearbox. I don't really feel smarter because of it though. It took too much trial and error for me to feel like I'm smart. But yeah, mine is in forward motion too.

Nice work, Mike and great photos.
I still think gearboxes look like the inside of a Romulan ship.

Only transmission I ever rebuilt was a BMW 2002 4 speed.. many years ago. It's a Getrag 4 speed gearbox with simple brass Borg Warner synchro rings.
When taking all the gears, bearings, shims, and synchro units off the main shaft I put them on a straightened out coat hanger to keep them in order. An old broom handle or dowel rod works good too.
Then I cleaned them with mineral spirits in one of those throw away heavy duty aluminum baking trays you get at grocery stores.

I've never done a 930 gearbox. Mine was completely rebuilt by the previous owners mechanic and it works great.
I always blip the throttle to match revs and double clutch on down shifts so the synchros are hardly used and they will probably last forever while I have the car.
If going quickly and braking while approaching a corner I heel and toe the brake and gas peddle while double clutching.
It's fun and down shifts are perfectly smooth that way.