Driving discussion

[Skillet83]

In light of the accident thread, would like to hear from those in the know about the real dangers of driving these cars, real world advice. I know cars are set up differently, but some things have to be similar.

I hear about in slow, out fast through corners, but what is real for the weekend driver, the novice? I like to look at the projects I see here and the builds, but not much talk about driving. What are limits to be cautious of? Do not do this! I love coming out of a long sweeping turn into a straight full boost, but am very cautious. Things happen very fast. Just looking for thoughts and opinions for those more experienced.

[bpu699]

I recently started tracking my 930. I was scared silly that I would spin out in every corner... Drove/ drive like a granny. Miatas fly by me...

Going into a tight corner at 40-45 mph I started to slip the back end out. I lifted on the gas...

Every oh-crap thought went through my head... Fully expected to spin, flip, light on fire, explode, and roll to my death...

Guess what... Nothing happened. The car just straightened out when I lifted, and kept going...

Most of us will never drive at the 10/10ths where lifting at peak boost mid turn causes issues. I suspect tires are much better than 30 years ago too...

To wipe out on the street, and spin, you have to be doing something really stupid on a slippery road...

Did the same silly mistake in a testarossa on 15 year old tires 10 years ago... She spun like crazy, full loop around... Now that car is tail heavy...

[kenikh]

I have two of the "deathtrap" cars: a 930 and a short wheelbase 911. Can they bite? Sure. But you can break every one of these "rules" if you know the car well enough. I trailing throttle oversteer the crap out of my short wheelbase. But I also know what it is going to do.

[Alan L]

Well, track driving is a bit different to hway, so track driving techniques really don't apply much. It is hard to know exactly where you are trying to go with this. It is a question of how much margin you want to be driving with. Track driving is pretty much on the margin or just inside it. You are feeling the limits of the car out, in whatever the conditions are at the time, and trying to stay just within. On a hway, you can't really get close to that point. So you don't really know how close to the limit you are. So my approach would be to stay well within what you might think it is capable of. Yes, slow in, fast out is always best. Because you have control going in and can set the car up for a good exit. Finish any braking and downshifts before the corner. For the w/end driver, and novice my best guess is to get the car pretty straightened up before getting boost up. Thats when the problems start - esp with these cars - the turbo is hardly progressive. Which makes them a lot of fun, but also makes them difficult to drive. You are throwing in an extra 100 hp or so half way round a corner - which really changes the dynamics. Add a wet road in and more so. Add some crappy tyres in and really you are on the edge before you start.
The best thing a w/end driver/novice could do is get some track time at a tutored playday and find what the limits look like. And stay way inside them on the hway.
When I drive fast on the hwy in my SC (my road car), I am always well within the limit of the car. In my view, pushing the car near the limit in those conds is just asking for trouble. Expect the unexpected. I may have the corner nicely nailed and be loading the gas on and find some other dipstick over the center line half way round the corner - so suddenly I have to change line abruptly, or start braking, mid corner. You want plenty spare. My SC broke a torsion bar once, in a corner.
The cars are forgiving - if you don't exceed the limits grossly. You can get them back from a tail slap.
If you have just slightly overstepped the mark and find the tail wanting to go somewhere else, a SLIGHT lift off the gas and a bit of countersteer will get it back. If you lift off big time in a complete panic you shift the balance of the already unbalanced car even more so, making it even more out of shape. If you approach and exceed the limits grossly rather than incrementally, things are so far out of shape you are in a lottery. But the place to figure that stuff out is on a track - with run off areas, and all the traffic going the same way.
My 2c. Don't know if that is helpful or not.
Regards
Alan

[gumba]

The best thing you can do is join PCA and go do some number of DE events. You will learn a lot about your limits and the cars. It will also improve your street driving stills.
With so many track venues these days from PCA with instructors to just open track days I don't get why folks still do stupid stuff on the street.

[gumba]

I forgot to mention auto crossing is another good place to learn car control.

[mark houghton]

Originally Posted by Alan L

Well, track driving is a bit different to hway, so track driving techniques really don't apply much. It is hard to know exactly where you are trying to go with this. It is a question of how much margin you want to be driving with. Track driving is pretty much on the margin or just inside it. You are feeling the limits of the car out, in whatever the conditions are at the time, and trying to stay just within. On a hway, you can't really get close to that point. So you don't really know how close to the limit you are. So my approach would be to stay well within what you might think it is capable of. Yes, slow in, fast out is always best. Because you have control going in and can set the car up for a good exit. Finish any braking and downshifts before the corner. For the w/end driver, and novice my best guess is to get the car pretty straightened up before getting boost up. Thats when the problems start - esp with these cars - the turbo is hardly progressive. Which makes them a lot of fun, but also makes them difficult to drive. You are throwing in an extra 100 hp or so half way round a corner - which really changes the dynamics. Add a wet road in and more so. Add some crappy tyres in and really you are on the edge before you start.
The best thing a w/end driver/novice could do is get some track time at a tutored playday and find what the limits look like. And stay way inside them on the hway.
When I drive fast on the hwy in my SC (my road car), I am always well within the limit of the car. In my view, pushing the car near the limit in those conds is just asking for trouble. Expect the unexpected. I may have the corner nicely nailed and be loading the gas on and find some other dipstick over the center line half way round the corner - so suddenly I have to change line abruptly, or start braking, mid corner. You want plenty spare. My SC broke a torsion bar once, in a corner.
The cars are forgiving - if you don't exceed the limits grossly. You can get them back from a tail slap.
If you have just slightly overstepped the mark and find the tail wanting to go somewhere else, a SLIGHT lift off the gas and a bit of countersteer will get it back. If you lift off big time in a complete panic you shift the balance of the already unbalanced car even more so, making it even more out of shape. If you approach and exceed the limits grossly rather than incrementally, things are so far out of shape you are in a lottery. But the place to figure that stuff out is on a track - with run off areas, and all the traffic going the same way.
My 2c. Don't know if that is helpful or not.
Regards
Alan

That's some good schitt Alan...

[clutch-monkey]

i do track and skidpan to improve my own skills but also to learn the limits of the car.
Then i don't get close to those limits on public roads. I always leave a healthy buffer in case of something unexpected (wildlife, bump in the road, etc)



in general the car is way more capable than the road it is on, so no problems there haha.

[OldSpool87]

Don't practice limits on public roads. Or go find a desert if you don't have options. I had a good hit on the track which had a few good spins and ended in a tire wall. It hurt my body, my instructor's body, my wallet and my car. That was two years ago. Almost everyday I think of how VERY lucky I was that it all ocurred on a controlled track and not a public road where serious pain to others could have been inflicted.

The fact that your asking the question is a great thing and puts you leaps and bounds ahead of the jokers posting YouTube videos of 90 mph traffic weaves.

Definitely join PCA and your local chapter. Go to the track and autocross. Hang out with other drivers and hot asphalt. It's challenging, rewarding and the best thing you can do for your car and those around you. And oh yeah, it's a ***** load of fun.

[s5uewf]

I echo the above: go to your local PCNA High Performance Driving Clinic a few times, or go to actual Driver Education (DE) events and get more comfortable with your car.

I actually recommend the HPDC over the DE first, as you will have an instructor with you who will force you to drive through some evasive maneuvers, corners at speed, braking situations, etc. - all things you need for the day to day street...and you will gain some confidence in your car.

Not sure what year your car is but Porsche designed out a lot of the bad manners by the late 1980's by adjusting sway bars, alignment, etc. as far as I know.

The whole "don't lift or you'll die" mantra is not true unless you are going so fast that inertia is going to swing the rear around on you. You will need to be on an off camber corner, or in a turn with a swell or dip in the surface (something that will force the suspension to unload), or you will need to be going so fast your rear tires lose grip.

After an HPDC and several years of DE's I have never felt my 911 or my 930 to be inherently unstable. I do ensure my alignment is conservative, my tires are always good, and I do brake before and into severe turns (any hard braking) and try to have power on when exiting from apex forward when driving fast.

Also, you could swap out that crappy stock turbo very easily and install a GT35 or other better turbo and get a much broader and smoother turbo power curve. My 930 drives accelerates much more controllably with a gt35 on it, while making more HP and torque. It's much better. Just something to consider.

[911tracker85]

great posts and advice.

track driving techniques really don't apply much.

over time I learned that what it takes to be fast on the track is often counter-intuitive to safe street driving. getting track time is still a great way to learn your car.

Track driving is pretty much on the margin or just inside it.

LOL... I tease one of my track friends about this. this is how I approach my track time. I tease him the way he learns is to frequently go way past the margin and spin out. unfortunately he is rebuilding the rear of his 911 for the second time from crashing at the same location on the same track. we keep hoping he will tone it down before something serious happens. in full disclosure, I have spun out a number of times on the track but so far never crashed my car....

find what the limits look like. And stay way inside them on the hway.

on tracks there is always some amount of run off or gravel pits and tire walls for safety. in general the is NO margin for error on the public highway. to the point of this post, that fatal accident graphically shows that.

most of us who have been attending DE events eventually start putting more and more safety gear in the car. as our skills advance we tend to push the limits more and more. there is a lot of debate about roll bars / cages on the street.

enjoy but be careful and learn to drive and learn your car. I used to track my 85 911 NA, but decided to retire it 3 yrs ago. got a 944 turbo. was not until the 3rd DE that I felt I knew the car well enough to push it. that is when I realized I needed a better suspension. working on that now.

different cars handle differently and the techniques to get the most out of them are different. 951 is faster and stronger than the 911 NA, but has very different tendencies at the limit.

also in the process of building a modified widow maker, 78 930 that I will take to the track. when I do, will encounter another learning curve.

5 weeks before my first DE of the year...

[mreid]

Regardless of where or how you drive, keep your car in top shape. New, good quality tires. Well maintained brake and suspension systems. Aligned and corner balanced. These alone will keep you out of trouble and provide better control if you overdo it. Now go learn how to drive and how to recover from over driving your car.

[zakthor]

I think the DE is the best advice, you spend a day driving the car hard with cones, skid pad, etc. Getting yelled at. Find out that:

- car understeers as well as oversteers
- wet skid pad you spend time to provoke oversteer, then learn to control it
- on and off boost you get to know how power surges even though you haven't given more throttle, I think this surge is what is dangerous about the turbo
- learn how difficult it is to brake well, settle the front before you gradually apply pressure, otherwise you can instantly lock the front wheels.

When I first got my sc I spent a rainy sunday morning in an empty parking lot. Got to learn well how to provoke "The Hammer Throw": If you lift at the wrong time in a tight corner the engine will fling the car backwards out of the corner and you totally lose control, the mass laughs at your tires. It is frightening and great to learn about because you never ever want it to happen.

As others have said there is no excuse ever for losing control on the street, you should never be pushing the envelope or drive past your vision. Important to learn the car so you have a clue where those boundaries are. New tires feel impossibly sticky but they do have limits so don't be stupid.

Lastly, when I got my 930 the rear swing arms were loose so rear wheels were unstable and steered out of corners. Was really weird and scary and rear had to be kept planted or silly stuff would happen. I thought I then understood that these cars were dangerous. After suspension redo the car is now very straight and predictable.

[Alan L]

I addition to wet roads, crap rubber, wicked turbo and turbo lag, you can add 35 yr old worn rubber suspension bushes to the list of things that makes these cars a challenge. But thats why we like them.
Remember that Porsche got forced by US courts to provide driver training for each new owner, by the time the car had the 'widowmaker' label. The same laws of physics that applied 35 yrs ago still apply today.
having said that, you can get the idea from the 930 forum that these guys LOVE the 930. It is just a matter of being able to drive it without white knuckles (which won't be enjoyable anyway). And the only way to enjoy it like others do is to follow as posted by everyone above.
You don't find too many threads with such unanimous advice.
Trees, power poles, ditches and curbs make lousy run off areas. Did I mention on coming traffic.
Only one place to learn. And only one way to get real comfortable with the car.
Regards
Alan

[s5uewf]

Where are you located? We can get you info for your local Porsche Club chapter, and then you can get in touch with them and get to some instruction and start enjoying your hot rod.

https://www.pca.org/region-directory

[flightlead404]

[QUOTE=bpu699;9043392]
To wipe out on the street, and spin, you have to be doing something really stupid on a slippery road...
/QUOTE]

No so.

Go do a drivers ed weekend and some autocross.

I spun my SC twice in normal traffic (this must be 20 years ago now). Once at a very low speed. I don't remember exactly but it was 3 lanes of stop and go bumper to bumper traffic on city streets. I was in the center lane, gassed it to change lanes around someone, another driver cut in and I snapped off the gas. Perfect low speed 360 degree spin, didn't even leave my lane.

The other time was the exact same scenario except at 80 on the highway in light traffic and some moronic left lane sitter hit their brakes as I was changing lanes. Perfect 360 degree spin, in my lane.

[Skillet83]

Thank you for the replies. Good stuff. If anyone interested, located in Tulsa, OK.

[Tippy]

To me, you just need to take the car beyond its limit so you know (somewhere safely obviously). Different brand tires? Do it again, since handling characteristics change.

[reachme]

My .02 is to pick up a copy of Vic Elfords "Porsche High Performance Driving Handbook" before you push the limits or even before DE training. That book will give you both the vocabulary and the physics to learn what happened and why, or how to talk to your instructor. Then when you do spin out you will know why.
We are very lucky to have a book written specifically about this topic on a 911, by a professional factory driver with decades experience before he wrote this book. suspension, shifting, conditions, proper position, equipment, technology, tires, weight, all that.
Since you are interested pick up a copy-used probably $10 so when you do spin out you will know why.

[Alan L]

Absolutely top suggestion. I have about 4 similar books, but not that one. But that sort of info is so much cheaper and more effective than tyres/brakes/fuel/engine that you burn up trying to learn same. Well prepared, you will get so much more from the track experience.
I'm going to track that book down too. You can never have too much info.
Wish I had thought of it myself. compulsory stuff.
Alan