Rebuilding a 2.7 myself - What will it cost?

[red-beard]

My primary goal is to get the engine running. This week I'll know for sure what is wrong with the engine, but I'm suspecting pulled case studs. I'd like to have case savers installed, but beyond that, I don't think much else should need to be done, unless I have cylinder damage.

I'll give them a call. I run into Bert down at the Princess every once in a while.

But Something on the order of $1000 for the Case savers, installation and then reassembly, that would be pretty darn good.

James

[fmangiero]

You can get Nikasil cylinders replated through Engine Buiders Supply. I think it was $150. for each cylinder. It's a bargain if you don't want to buy all six new cylinders. I had to do my rebuild because of a piston ring failure and subsequent detonation on the side of 1 piston. I could have found one used piston and cylinder, but the ring lands on the other 5 pistons were at their maximum tolerance so I chose to replace all of the pistons with JE pistons. If more of my cylinders needed replacing I would have gone for the Mahle P/C set...that would have cost another $1500 over just the JE's. The cylinder, pistons and a few broken valve springs were the only things I had to replace aside from a few worn out rockers. It's a big ??? how much $$$ it's going to cost you. I think my +/-$4k is on the low side of a rebuild.

[red-beard]

Just got off the Phone with Sergio at Motorwerks:

Disasemble and re-assemble $700
Valve job - grind and new guides $400
Installation of Case Savers $175

Parts are extra and he recommends I "Find them myself". He thinks with the low milage, that the cylinders should be able to be re-used (won't know until it's apart).

James

[Evans, Marv]

James:
Sergio did the work on my engine. He's a great guy! Those prices sound pretty reasonable. Sounds like they haven't changed at all since I had work done there. Be prepared to spend some more for unforseen things that are needed once they look at the inside of the engine. You may have to spring for a rebiuld kit, hydraulic tensioner kit, etc. I think Sergio is actually the owner, a great machinist and knows tons about older Porsche stuff. He calles himself a dinosaur when it comes to Porsche. He knows the old stuff and has worked on it for decades. If your engine has parts in it that are OK to reuse, they won't try to screw you into buying new ones.

[Wayne 962]

See here regarding my comments on cutting corners:

Cutting Corners on 911 Engine Rebuilds...

-Wayne

[mb911]

I just feel that rebuilding something you should not be parts replacers but rather inspect and only replace what is required. I have worked on aircraft engines for several years and follow strict FAA rules along with engine manufactures requirements and I don't just replace things for the heck of it unless it is out of spec. I agree that you can not do things half a**ed but also to not spend 6 grand on a stock rebuild . Most times when this happens it due to some one trying to make a buck which is wrong but does happen in this market but hey thats just my opnion

Ben

75 914-6
77 911s 3.0

[snowman]

The rebuilt engine from Stoddard is starting to look pretty good?? At the price they want and what they replaced, you probably can not beat it, but then again they are a rebuilder, and get prices and savings othes cannot even imagine. For a fixed price you get everythng. Its a fixed price you cannot beat if you do all they do and you must do all they do to do it right.

Saving a couple of bucks for a part hear or there is a clue that the person rebuilding the engine isn't the one you really want to do the job. You may think you save but you do not.

I get the best price for parts because I am an avid enthuseist who does enough per year to get the jobbers prices, ie about 30 percent of what you all pay at your best price. This really changes your outlook on what you do or do not replace. YOu ask yourself do you really want to risk the whole thing on "this many dollars"? YOu end up saying no, unless you are from south of the border. No offense, but you all know EXACTLY what I mean. We don't do things that way in der fatherland.

[mb911]

I agree sounds like a good plan. I just felt that acessment is the key to a good engine rebuild not just throw money at it as many do.

Ben

[Rob McKibbon]

Sounds like you're having some success Red-Beard; Good Luck!
If you're on a tight budget then that's one thing? If you're not then I'd recommend going with the whole Shabang? I just did my engine (wish I'd had Wayne's book - but I think I got it covered?) and did everything I possibly could including machine work to SC Carrera Specs.

To me, "Down Time" is not acceptable!!!! Here in Canada we drive for only part of the year - and a pit stop during peak season is such a drag; so when I'm in the pit, I'm doing all I can to make sure there's no interuptions in my summer enjoyment period.

Bye the way, this is "Wayne's" board representing "His" company and a little respect would be appreciated. If you don't agree with the man, show a little restraint. Not particularily on this thread, but I'm awed by how rude some people can be to the moderators and Wayne????

I appreciate this board so much, that I'll buy my parts from Wayne whenever I can, even if they're a little more $$$, the information I've obtained from this board has saved me thousands!!!!!

Thanks Wayne!!!
(I'm still gauking at the 930 steering wheel, SS bezels and Aluminum pedal set???? - Just waiting for my final bills to show up on my rebuild and to have her running sweet before I get the plastic out and order it all up!)

[Wayne 962]

I'm used to people being rude - it's the Internet. They are very rarely rude to my face, and when they are, I have plenty to say.

Most of the people here are trying to find shortcuts and ways to avoid paying $8K for a rebuild. The only true shortcut I know is to do it yourself. That will save about $2K or $2,500 off the cost of reassembly. By the way, disassemble and reassemble for $700 is rediculously inexpensive. This Sergio fellow must be starving. It's about 40 hours labor to assemble a 911 engine carefully and correctly, performing all of the measurements and checks along the way.

Sure, you can find places to cut corners, but nothing in life is free - you will pay for it later on. It's like people who smoke - they just have their head burried in the sand and are in denial. If you cut corners, you significantly increase the chances that your engine will leak, or that it will not last very long at all. If you're fine with that, then great! But if you want to do it right and not slap it together, then you need to pay attention to detail, use the correct tools, replace out-of-spec parts (this includes pistons and cylinders), and take your time.

It is my opinion that you can do a better job armed with my new book, than you will get from a professional mechanic. Why? Because most people will take the time to perform all the checks and measurements completely and correctly. This is not something that you want to rush...

Regardless, Ben - you are right and wrong at the same time. Parts should indeed only be replaced if they are worn out and need replacement. However, that $6K figure is very easy to reach with worn out parts. The machine work alone on my 2.7L was $3K. See the link earlier in this thread. New P&Cs were $1500. The rest just adds up. Don't believe me? I have tables and charts based on actual costs of parts in chapter one of the new book...

-Wayne

[Evans, Marv]

I agree that $700 for disassembly and assembly is inexpensive, but I wouldn't automatically brand a shop you don't know anything about as suspect. And, I totally understand what Wayne is saying - and it really does apply in most cases. Sergio is the owner of the place and doesn't need to work, since its not a financial necessity for him. He is an old timer and maybe hasn't caught up with the going rate. He has been working on Porsche engines for over 40 years. His machine shop is a pretty big operation around for decades, where most of the local independents and dealers take their machine work to be done, and have for many years. In fact, it was one of the better known (Deiters) shops here who referred me to him saying that's where they took their out of house machine work. The engine work is sort of a side line with Sergio. He does it because he likes it. Maybe if he quintupled his prices people would actually be happier. Maybe those of us in the San Diego area should have kept out mouths shut and not shared, so we don't mess things up for ourselves.

[Wayne 962]

As history tells it, you get what you pay for. There are indeed exceptions to this rule, but they are few and far between. Proceed with caution when having anyone perform your rebuild. The best thing you can do is arm yourself with new information (one of the reasons why I wrote the book - so people wouldn't be taken advantage of).

For comparison, Walt Watson (Competition Engineering) charges $600 for the short block assembly, $1450 for the long block assembly, and $2500 to bolt the whole thing back together complete. I think that those prices are very reasonable for someone who has as much knowledge as Walt.

Serge may be the best deal going in Engine Rebuilding - I have no idea. I had never heard of him before reading this post...

-Wayne

[mb911]

Wayne,

Sounds like we are pretty much on the same page. Machine work is were it gets you. I often look at the price of the piston and cylinder kits and wonder if they are made of solid gold or what but hey it is a porsche. I still can't say they are not worth it

Ben
75 914-6 (2.7)
77 911s (3.0)

[Wayne 962]

Well, honestly? I think that you guys should be thankful that Mahle is still making these things to begin with. The 3.0L set is $3000, which is $500/piston and cylinder. If these were no longer available, I would have people begging to buy them from me at that price. This is what is happening with some of the older 2.2 pistons and cylinder sets right now...

-Wayne

[mb911]

Oh trust me I am not cutting on you or your company it just seems expensive for 6 piston and cylinders. Although I must also mention That I rebuilt a ROTAX aircraft engine (made in austria) 2 cylinders alone were 1800 bucks and each piston with rings only were $189 each. So my point being it is simply a european thing. I am glad they are still available just excited about the price . I am from an industrial back ground and have seen pistons made from scratch. It is not as exciting as some might think. Just food for thought.

Ben
914-6
911s

[red-beard]

Any clue how the LN Engineering replacements stack up against the Mahle's ?

James

[snowman]

Another way to save is to sign up for an engine class at your local community college, that is if you are lucky enough to live in an area that offers one. You can then do all your own machining and save big. You can also find where to buy some of the more common stuff, like valve guides and valves at reasonable prices. If you are energetic you can also buy chevy parts, like stainless valves, machine them the the correct size and save big time. The college I attend even has balancing equipment. Think of it , a complete engine balance to less than one gram for free!

Actually you can also do things like a valve job, in your garage. You can buy just what you need. Neway cutters for intake and exhaust, a pilot, a driver and you are almost in business for less than the cost of a valve job. You can have someone else grind the valves, use new valves, or buy an inexpensive valve grinder tool, or make your own valve grinder tool using a drill press and a homemade grinder. The only thing you might have trouble doing at home is the valve seats, but they are usually good, if recut.

[john walker's workshop]

beam me up scotty, wrong planet.