Case Squirters

[Wayne 962]

Snowjob, you sound increasingly silly each time you post. First of all, in my original post, I specifically stated that I did not know the answer to begin with. So your 'revealation' is nothing new. I have no reservations about acknowledging my own shortcomings and leaving tasks to the professionals that have done it before. In college, I had more than 500 hours in the machine shop on everything from lathes to bridgeports, to 5-axis milling machines. Still, I would not work on the cases myself without at least first getting the inside information from an experienced machinist, like Walt.

Another thing, how dare you accuse me (and others here) of "protecting the turf." That statement is so ludicrous, it speaks accolades of your lack of thought that you put into your comments. If I was all about protecting the turf, then I wouldn't have written 101 Projects and the new Engine Book. I like to think that I'm smart - in that I show people the tasks that they can indeed do themselves, and also recommend the tasks that should be handled by a competant machine shop. This is indeed one of those tasks.

Oh wait, I forgot that you are superior to all of us here.

-Wayne

[jim72911t]

Maybe I shouldn't comment, but.............

Snowman quote:

"Then its just a matter of tiltiing the table the to the required angle, using the knob conviently provided to do so, spot the desired locations, drill and then ream to size."

What kind of milling machine are you using? I've never used a Bridgeport (or Bridgeport copy) that had a tilting table. The head, yes, in two axis. Drill presses have a tilting table. But those are simply not suitable for the type of work being asked about here.

Snowman quote:

"Since the case is Magnesium or Aluminum I would use 0.003 interferance fit, plus red loctite, plus a little punch security."

Three thou seems a bit much, don't you think?

JB,
I don't have the info you need, and IMO, if your machinist doesn't have it or can't find it, maybe it's time to try another machine shop. Machining isn't rocket science, but I turn down jobs all the time that I don't feel comfortable with or cannot make a decent profit with. When I brought my case to my (Porsche) machinist, he took one look at the case and identified what year car the motor was out of. Confidence inspiring, to say the least.

Leave it to the pros. Sure, we're all pros at something, but not all of us are pros at machining Porsche engine cases. Even if we are machinists.

JB,
Good luck
Jim

[JB]

OK guys, I really appreciate all of the comments and suggestions but I didn't mean for this quest for knowledge to turn into a slug fest. I know all parties mean well based on their background and experience. Yes, I agree that these types of jobs should be left to professionals. It is unfortunate (for me) that most of the professionals seem to be located in southern CA, not Texas. I have a very enthusiastic machinist here that already has several reliable set-ups for 911 cases that he has been performing for over 10 years and he has a strong desire to competently install squirters in early cases, especially since the current trend seems to be to use the early aluminum cases for race motors. I'm a mechanical engineer by training and even if I can't do something, I have a desire to know how it is done properly. The more I know, the more I realize I don't know

All of this aside, I actually had a nice conversation with Walt yesterday ( yes, as Wayne previously stated, Walt is just a super individual in my opinion). Walt says that "any competent machinist should be able to figure out how to install squiters". He confirmed that my guy was on the right track by sectioning my cracked mag (donor) case to see how the drilled squirter holes intersected the case through bolt holes. The proceedure to build a tool is basically to machine an aluminum plug to fit down in the cylinder bore, locate off the head stud holes and fit close the the main bearing web that will take the squirter. Then using a sectioned case with squirter removed, the plug is back drilled through the case squirter hole to set the squirter orientation in the plug. When drilling the case, the squirter hole is first drilled undersize to a depth that will set the squirter flush with the web (basically a stop). Then it is drilled through to the through bolt bore to a very slight interference fit that will almost allow the squirter to be pushed in by hand. The squirter is seated with a drift matched to the outer diameter of the squirter and then staked in 120 degrees apart. So, it all boils down to a drill fixture with a drilling process to set the hole depth and bore size. But there are probably other good ways to accomplish the same thing as well.

Thanks to all for their imput on this matter. If anyone has other comments to add or other info that will be helpful, I would welcome it.

JB

[5axis]

In college, I had more than 500 hours in the machine shop on everything from lathes to Bridgeport, to 5-axis milling machines. Still, I would not work on the cases myself without at least first getting the inside information from an experienced machinist, like Walt.

Wayne.
I have been enjoying this thread, and still am. 500 hours hmm that's a little more than 2 months in the trade. I have guys that have been at it over 30 years and I think they would have to agree with you.

There are not many things we can not do.
I know that we can not make something if we do not know what it is that we are trying to make.

Information. is almost everything.

On our gun drill we have sign posted.
NO numbers.
NO hole.
GO away!

Or we sometimes say LOUDLY to the engineers "where is the MFKN print" (or file)?

(keeps them in line)

[911pcars]

Some random thoughts if I may.

The know-how for "how to do it" started somewhere. First the factory did it, then someone decided to replicate it (or vice-versa as the case may be). If that was any one of the machinists here, that might be you, if you follow my drift. Someone would have had to take the first step and use a sacrificial crankcase to determine the necessary drill angles and jigs to accurately duplicate the procedure or arrive at the same result. If you're not willing to do that for any number of valid reasons - that's okay. Does this mean someone shouldn't attempt it if they want to? I think not. Otherwise we stand around looking around to see if anyone is conscious, to see if anyone is willing to risk taking that first step. As JB researched, it's doable. However, not everyone is going to want to do this, or put it another way, someone might want to do it and learn this skill - or we could let this knowledge go away with the last of the craftsmen. Boy, that sounds like I'm talking about losing someones heritage or something. Not that heavy, but significant to some extent.

I guess the same applies to something as mundane as rebuilding a 911 engine. Can anyone do this? I suppose. Wayne lays it all out in a first rate manner (from what I understand. I haven't gotten it yet). But I wouldn't want to necessarily be the recipient of an engine built by a first timer. There's a certain amount of skill assumed by Wayne (should be anyway) for someone to do this properly. I'd prefer the 911 DIYer complete a few engines before tackling this project. One can always follow the numbers and complete the task, but without some basic skills, experience and prior rebuilding knowledge (whatever that might be), then some details are bound to fall through the cracks. Same goes with these squirters. If everyone leaves it for the established experts, the knowledge goes with them when they decide to pack it up and spend their days with a fishing line - there will be few beneficiaries of the knowledge they've acquired. Can I mention the number of people who are conversant with MFI pump rebuilding or rebushing throttle shafts? I realize livelihoods are at stake here - wouldn't be good for some if everyone could ... manufacture a piston, for example.

However, I understand the valid reason for Wayne not including every single skill/craft needed, especially the finessing of metal which is a skill supported by lots of training and experience. If there is knowledge that benefits us all, tell us about it.

But then again I could be wrong,
Sherwood

[5axis]

Same goes with these squirters. If everyone leaves it for the established experts, the knowledge goes with them when they decide to pack it up and spend their days with a fishing line - there will be few beneficiaries of the knowledge they've acquired.


Not quite. We have their work to examine and appreciate. When I first started in this silly trade I worked in a pattern shop. I got to repair, modify and sometimes replicate some patterns that had been made before 1920. I enjoyed preserving work by someone who I only knew by their initials stamped somewhere on the pattern.


With regard to the frikkin squirters. Find a example and RE it. No big deal except that it will be more efficent to have the "expert " do it, and save the headache of the RE work and time.

[911pcars]

Wouldn't it be more efficient not to re-invent the wheel? Many things can be reverse-engineered, but it takes longer to accomplish. The data provided by JB will surely save someone a few hours, days ...... crankcases.

Sherwood

[Wayne 962]

I agree 100% - in principle. My perspective (which many here don't see) is the person who is armed with just enough information to be dangerous. There are a lot of people out there who think that they can adequately perform a task, when in reality they have no idea what they are doing. When dealing with these types of questions, it's typically best to use a general rule of thumb, and err on the side of caution.

Another measuring stick is my own experience. If the task is not something that I would do myself (someone who is reasonably good in the garage, and with a BridgePort) then I typically recommend that most people leave it to someone else.

In a nutshell, in case I wasn't clear: If I wouldn't do something myself, and I personally would take it to someone else to have the task performed, then I make that recommendation to other people who ask.

-Wayne

[snowman]

Wow, except for the person posting the original question, no new information was provided for anyone to use. Not everyone has a sacrificial case to work with, especially if your are only going to do 1 case for yourself. As an engineer with a lot of design experience I know that with enough time and effort I could replicate Porsches original design work, now that’s REALLY reinventing the wheel and a needless exercise (Unless I was personally into engine design and just wanted to know everything possible, which I am not). There is to little time to do everything yourself, so given that there are several sources to go to get the squirters installed, just like there are many places to go to get the engine rebuilt, and I JUST WANT TO DO IT MYSELF, I am looking for the information, that should be readily available. Even given the info further checking is required to be certain it is correct. Any competent shop has to much work to begin with and will probably share the info if they have it. Everyone has a different approach to doing the job, eg Walt made a fixture that effectively makes an exact copy of one of the cases Porsche did. Personally I would have made a 3D solid in Autocad of the whole engine, measured a couple of scrap cases, drawn up the squirters, try to figure out where they were trying to point them exactly, verify that the dimensions indeed did so in every hole, given the cad file to a master machinist with a capability of 6 axis machining and let him figure out how to machine it in detail. Everyone has different setups, tooling, adjustable tables, no adjustable table or whatever, that is NOT the subject being discussed, that’s the machinists job. If one does not have a case to tear apart, one can use the dimensions and angles, if they are available. I have between 80,000 to 90,000 hours of professional design engineering experience designing stuff that has never been done before and got really big bucks doing it. I can buy a band new Turbo Porsche if I wanted one, which I do not. I rather enjoy remaking an old one. I think I can come up with a dozen ways to do the job, if I were so inclined, which I am not.

I, like the original poster, would just like some basic info to so with what I want. In this case, pardon the pun, we are not discussing what goes in Waynes book. I am in agreement with Wayne on that, i.e. it is his book and he is entitled to write it the way he sees fit. But what’s that got to do with the posting on the 911 engine forum? I would expect this forum to provide information that may not be contained in the book, for example all the snide comments...What’s the difference between the question asked here and "How fast can a 1973, 911R go"? Pretty dangerous information huh? Someone like me might actually go out on the track and drive that fast, I have. Seems like the information asked for, eg drill a sleeve fit hole at, x,y ref to cylinder CL at an angle of xyz degrees or whatever is pretty innocuous in comparison.

[island911]

Originally posted by snowman
You all are incredible. Trying to make a simple thing some kind of Magic. Takes a magician, ie person in the business, ie getting paid to do the work, to understand it. Protecting the turf. That simple. To afraid that just anyone can do it.

Hmm, "Protecting the turf. . .Too afraid. . .." I don't think you've got that right.
It seems to me Jack, you have a lack of respect for the sublties of Porsche engineering, and contempt for those whom are aware.
Furthermore, trying to lable John Walker or Wayne as some sort of "knowlge protectionists" could not be further off the mark. These guys, in particular, exceed in promulgating the 911 knowlege base. (if you havn't noticed)

I do understand having the attitude of 'hey, it not rocket science" . . .but when it come to 'those engineers at Porsche" you would be well advised to have some appreciation for those sublties that make or break a sound solution. (it ain't no chebby)

BTW: "6 axis machining " does your machinist really use 6axis control. . .or is that like a Spinal-Tap thing. . ."yeah, but my volume goes to eleven! " (?)

[snowman]

wouldn't use more than 2 axis for this job.
Wow this seems to be somehow more complecated than boring and honing a cylinder, or truing up the case NOT ! It Really is an almost trivial machine operation. You might even have to use a DRILL.

I have PERSONALLY performed EVERY typical machine operation on several Porsche engines, almost every american engine made, my BMW M6, several differen't English things and some I would perfer to forget about. This includes complete balancing, cc ing, flow ing, valve grinds, 5 angle, valve guides, fly cutting and squaring blocks, heads, all measurements, plus reassembly, not to mention theoretical research on Ribblets, and advanced flow improvemet technique NASCAR and Indy cars are using, Have you?
PS on misinformation

Since I haven't given ANY information I guess there is no misinfo involved.

[island911]

Snowman, whats with all the superfluous info, and responding to questions not asked? Are you just trying to deflect the question?

[snowman]

Which is???

[snowman]

island911,

Your comments on Porsche engineers. NOWHERE did I say ANYTHING bad about Porsche engineers. THey are world class engineers, like myself.

[island911]

Originally posted by snowman
Which is???

"6 axis machining " does your machinist really use 6axis control. . .or is that like a Spinal-Tap thing. . ."yeah, but my volume goes to eleven! " (?)

[snowman]

Yes , on some jobs they did. I am retired so it is all in the past tense.

[snowman]

Another PS

So it they arn't protectiing turf, wheres the numbers? They certainly haven't provided them.

[island911]

Originally posted by snowman
island911,

Your comments on Porsche engineers. NOWHERE did I say ANYTHING bad about Porsche engineers. THey are world class engineers, like myself.

Originally posted by snowman
IT ain't rocket science Wayne.

Originally posted by snowman
Personally I would have made a 3D solid in Autocad of the whole engine, . .. .

Somehow "Autocad" & "world class engineers, like myself. " don't go together. . . .unless you mean you're a "world class engineer" mapping sewage and water run-off.

[island911]

Originally posted by snowman
Another PS

So it they arn't protectiing turf, wheres the numbers? They certainly haven't provided them.

What they are providing is not "numbers" but rather the sound advice of, don't Dickt around, take it to someone who knows.

[snowman]

Unless they have personally tried it, and I think they have not, they cannot personally say if they would recommend it or not. I think the advice is fine, but the decision isn't theirs to make.