SS 2.8 or 3.0 economy build possible?

[91167coupe]

Hello
I am buying a 67S project without engine. The 2.0S engines are getting very expensive and I am looking at other alternatives, until I save up the funds for buying/building an alu 2.0S.
I am looking at the 3.0 or 3.2 engines as these have the robust alu case. I have bought a good set of 40IDA's and would love to use the 66mm crank and S-spec cams to get revy feel like from the early S-en Ines.
But is it possible to build an "economy" short stroke engines based on the 3.0 or 3.2? I am not looking for much power but a fun revvy engine.

[MST0118]

Need 9 bolt Supertec crank. Not sure what they go for but ask Henry.

[mepstein]

I'm building a SS on a 3.0 case for my 67 project. I'm also looking for rpm's over hp. I want to be able to run at 8K comfortably and not worry if the needle hits 9K. My builder told me the lighter rods, valve train and getting the heads ported will be spendy. I also need 46mm carbs or more preferably, ITB's. I'll use a 915 trans.

I'm no engine building expert but I do know as soon as you move away from stock, these engines get pricey. There's just no way around it.

Why not get a reasonably priced running engine to drive the car while you save up and build your dream engine. Then sell the runner down the road for (probably more) than what you paid.

[stownsen914]

One thing - the early 66mm 6 bolt crank won't fit a 3.0L or later case. You'd have to buy a custom crank. There was a 3.0L Carrera engine that used the early 6 bolt crank, but they're rare. I don't see a budget way to do 66mm on a 3.0L case.

Even 3.0L "runners" don't go cheaply these days. As mepstein says, non-stock gets expensive quickly. If you're doing assembly yourself and keep your eyes open for deals, it may be possible to do on more of a budget.

[mepstein]

I recently sold a running 3.0 euro Carrera engine and just purchased another in pieces. Those engines are special. Rev like a 2.7 RS but have more grunt down low. We are just finding the right parts for its unique cis so we can build it up stock.

[91167coupe]

Thanks folks for your input! So a standard 3.0 with Webers and early exhaust or possibly a 2.7 with 66mm crank(2.5)? How much dies it cost to fix a 2.7 case? (Case savers, line bore(if needed) and shuffle pins). 2.7 engines are halve price of a 3.0 abd save about 10kg? And would a non counterweight crank work up til 7300rpm?

[targa72e]

You can find prices for case work online from Ollies:
https://olliesengineering.com/
About the only semi budget short stroke you can build is to use a mag case and build a 2.5 (66 x 90). You can use 2.7 cylinders that are re-plated and JE pistons.
Other option on SC case is bore 95mm Carrera cylinders to 98 and build a short stroke 3.2 (70.4 x 98).
Both these options require the appropriate cams and induction systems.

john

[stownsen914]

Mag cases tend to warp when the engine is disassembled and need a lot of work to bring them back.

[David Borden]

Originally Posted by 91167coupe

Thanks folks for your input! So a standard 3.0 with Webers and early exhaust or possibly a 2.7 with 66mm crank(2.5)? How much dies it cost to fix a 2.7 case? (Case savers, line bore(if needed) and shuffle pins). 2.7 engines are halve price of a 3.0 abd save about 10kg? And would a non counterweight crank work up til 7300rpm?

I just went through this on my 2.7. To do the proper case work will probably run $3000-4000. Mine was on the high side of that. From all I've read, you dont want to take shortcuts on this. A 3.0 case is more than likely not going to need machine work so maybe a better choice if looking to do a more budget build, assuming you have a good core.

David

[M3pilot]

It sounds like I'm in a similar boat as mepstein. I had been contemplating a build for my freshly "restored" '70T coupe. The car is stunning - even had a cameo in 000 - but still running on its somewhat tired original engine. I considered most reasonable options . . . buy a 7R case, buy a sand cast aluminum case ($$$), use the original, use the '69E motor I have stuffed under the stairs. I did not have any particular target for power in mind but I DID want something reasonably robust, I wanted to retain a reasonably period-correct appearance and, most of all, I wanted to retain the character of the 66mm crank.
I did also have a complete, low mile but disassembled early SC motor I bought a few years ago for which I had no particular plans. I was aware of the "Supercrank" but had assumed a stratospheric price tag for it and the titanium GT3 rods Henry referenced in his posts about it. Facing the costs of finding a 7R case, having all the necessary work done I figured it was at least worth a call to Henry to get a bit more info. In a nutshell, I learned that:

• The Supercranks were not as expensive as I had thought (not what most would call "budget", of course)
• There are other rod options besides a $5000+ set of new GT3 rods
• Henry has been exceedingly gracious in his willingness to discuss the build.

Some parameters are still up in the air but will likely be something along the lines of Carrillo rods, 10 - 10.5:1 95mm CP pistons, Alusil cylinders Nikasil plated, Supertec head studs, 46mm carbs, twin-plug dist., John Dougherty recommended DC65 cams.
Is this a recipe for a "budget" 2.8SS? Not for me. But for others who wouldn't think of foregoing Ti rods, Extreme heads, Nickies, etc. for such an engine it probably is. On the flip-side, you could, I think, put a Supercrank in an SC motor and reuse everything from the rods out. Much more budget-friendly but why bother?
Ultimately I was able to rationalize this path because I already had the donor engine; it was a sunk cost with inherent advantages over earlier stuff and I would be able to leave my other two engines alone. If I were starting from scratch and had to acquire 3.0L to start with, it personally would have been much harder to justify.

[91167coupe]

If going the "economic" ss route and base it on the 2.7 7R with 66mm crank, 8,5:1 pistons, weber 40IDA, early exhaust but leave the heads original, what hp and torque are we talking about?
And would S-grind cams work with this kind of comp?

[Trackrash]

Originally Posted by 91167coupe

If going the "economic" ss route and base it on the 2.7 7R with 66mm crank, 8,5:1 pistons, weber 40IDA, early exhaust but leave the heads original, what hp and torque are we talking about?
And would S-grind cams work with this kind of comp?

My old motor was a 2,2 with 90mm 8.5-1 P&Cs making it a SS 2.5L. 35mm ports, 40mm Webers, and E cams. ~190 FWHP. With S cams and more compression easy 200+ HP, I was told.

You really want more than 8.5-1 CR, IMO. But also you can have quite a rev happy motor with a 70mm crank. Use light weight pistons, a lightweight pressure plate, and maybe a lighter flywheel. It's all about using the right components that work together to achieve your goal.

[stownsen914]

Note that if you take 8.5:1 pistons intended for 70.4 mm stroke, and instead put them in a motor with 66 mm stroke, you’ll end up with even lower compression like 7.5 or 8:1.

[Walt Fricke]

If you use a 70.4 crank and stock flywheel bolt torque, hold rpms below 7,000. Too much time over about that and the bolts will loosen.

[91167coupe]

Thanks folks for your input, highly appreciate it!
I have now received a very nice set of Weber 40IDA 3C/3C1 with manifolds. I have also paid for a 66mm counter weight crank which is soon on its way. Will measure and check this when it arrive.
I am now thinking of 3 alternatives :
1: 3.0 or 3.2 with Webers and early exhsust(if I find an ok priced engine). Best case and most hp but heavy and less correct in a SWB.
2: 2.5 based on a 76/77 2.7 engine with JE ca 9-9,5 and S-cams(if I find a good core engine). Sounds like a fun engine with characteristic like the 2.0S but more power.
3: 2.0 S-spec engine based on a 5R or 7R 2.4 case and 2.0T heads. Most correct for the car and halve price/lower weight VS an Alu 2.0S engine.
I guess these three engines will have the ca same budget, but based on price and condition on core engines of course.
Btw, a very respected engine machine shop here in Norway claim that Heli coils are better for cylinder bolts in mag cases?

[inastrangeland]

The engine in my 1970 T was built by a local Porsche shop. They rebuilt the mag case, line bored, pinned, helicoils, etc. It's a 2.8 with 70.4mm crank, twin plug, 10:1, with Web 120/104 cams, and MFI. The engine pulls good down low and really wakes up above 4K. Really fun to drive. Definitely a good choice for an early 911. My concern is now the 901 which was also recently rebuilt. Seems a 915 is in the future for this setup.

[Dpmulvan]

I have a complete 1981 3.0 never been apart I’m thinking about selling pm me if interested.

[mikedsilva]

Originally Posted by mepstein

I recently sold a running 3.0 euro Carrera engine and just purchased another in pieces. Those engines are special. Rev like a 2.7 RS but have more grunt down low. We are just finding the right parts for its unique cis so we can build it up stock.

I converted my c3.0 to efi and itbs and have the original fuel distributor and WUR if they are of interest.