10 of 12 update - Page 2

jhelgesen · 06-05-2003, 02:09 PM

Well, it was a good day.

My machinist got the first case half set up yesterday, and we located then drilled the studs to 1/4". Heated each one for about 5 minutes the used a #4 extractor and a lot of torque to twist the first 3 studs out. Ran out of gas on the 4th, so I'll get back on it tomorrow, finish the first case half.

jhelgesen · 06-06-2003, 05:33 AM

Gonna have to get one of these for the house some day.

Tim Walsh · Tim Walsh's Garage

lookin' good john.. keep it up, you might be the first of any of the NC pelicanheads to get back on the road.

jhelgesen · 06-06-2003, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by l33t9eek
lookin' good john.. keep it up, you might be the first of any of the NC pelicanheads to get back on the road.

If so, do I get the award for highest Visa balance also?

Tim Walsh · Tim Walsh's Garage

Not sure either you'd be the winner or a close second behind dave.

Wayne 962 · Wayne 962's Garage

Not to be negative or anything, but that's not the way I would have done it. I don't think registering the case off of the bottom studs is a good idea. I don't know of anyone who does any work without first removing the inside studs. This is so you can then lay the case surface flat against the Bridgeport table, and get good registration. If any of the studs are off a little bit, the hole you drill will be crooked. Unless, of course, you used a dial gauge to reference the top surface of the case...

-Wayne

bash555 · 11:48 AM

I could be wrong here, but it looks as if the case is bolted down on some sort of raised block by means of the bearing webs in the two farthest cylinders.
And those two rear studs aren't touching (bad pic angle)

If that's the case, the machinist probably did this to make a perfectly straight hole by adjusting the tilt of the base that the case is bolted to.

my $0.02

jhelgesen · 06-06-2003, 11:53 AM

Wayne,

My tool room buddy set the case up on precision blocks on the material of the main bearings, keeping things off the outside perimeter, and up high enough that the studs were off the table.

Then he used a dial indicator to locate the centers of the bores to get the block square on the x/y, then used the dial to get the coordinates of the broken studs.

This is when he handed it to me and walked me through spot facing the tops of the broken studs, center drilling, then progressivly used larger carbide tipped bits to drill up to 1/4".

I'm officially without studs now, pulled the last one out at lunch today. One thing I did learn was that a screw extractor is good for about 2 studs, throw it out afterword.

I don't know what EDMing a stud costs around here, but I got these done for a few hours of my time, $12 worth of screw extractors, and a case of beer for my buddy.

This weekends project is to clean the heck out of the case and measure everything, then make another order to Wayne's.

Wayne 962 · Wayne 962's Garage

Okay, I see. From the photo, it certainly looks like the case is sitting on the studs!

-Wayne

jhelgesen · 06-06-2003, 12:06 PM

Maybe this is better:

Ding dong the studs are dead, the studs are dead, the studs are dead, ding dong the wicked studs are dead!

Tim Walsh · Tim Walsh's Garage

LOL! lookin' good john.

cowtown · 06-06-2003, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jhelgesen
My tool room buddy set the case up ...

I wish each of us had a buddy like yours, John. Nice job on the case

KTL · 06-10-2003, 10:49 AM

Good topic with great pictures.

Certainly gives one an idea how much of a hassle broken head studs can be.

Can't wait to do mine someday................

jhelgesen · 06-10-2003, 12:30 PM

Send me the case, we'll do it for you.

snowman · 06-10-2003, 07:36 PM

Wayne,

Since your are in the business, and are devoting your life to Porsche, really I mean this, you need to go to the furthest steps possible, personally, so you REALLY obtain the deepest possible understanding of everything Porsche. My old Judo teacher once said, unless you devote your LIFE to it you will not truly understand it. He was correct. My life was to short to inlcude Porsche, only a narrow portion of the microwave electronics field. But I have taken the last couple of years to devote 100 percent of my time and whole life to learn what I can. If you think this kind of talk is nonsense then you do NOT UNDERSTAND, if you are the best at your chosen profession, you almost certainly do understand.

Anyway enough pontificating.

Wayne, go out and find a place where you can get some hands on, including all the machining operations involved in engine rebuilding. It will help you understand what truly can be done and what cannot. It will, in the end make you more money than you invested in learning. I know there aren't many opportunities in this country to get this type of experience. In the worst case come to Orange county, CA for 9 months and take both the engine rebuilding, and engine blueprinting class at Saddleback College. A genuine hotrodder is the department head, and Professor. I have taken it 4 times now and am signed up again next year (slow learner).

The experience takes a lot of the mystery and crap out of doing the machining operations. You will get to do them all, yourself. YOu will not become a true expert like Walt but the experience will help make things so clear that you will have an entirely new viewpoint. It is difficult to transfer the info to people who have not invested the same time in learning the stuff to much reversion to the mystique of whatever. But transfering more info is in everyones interest, as well as yours, as it will help you develop and sell new and better stuff. This is even more true in the higher tech world of post 1980 engines. Those Honda guys are real techie nerds of sorts and the hot rodders of tomorrow, they are soaking up everything we knew and going the next step. Gotta run to keep up.

Wayne 962 · Wayne 962's Garage

While I'm sure that you mean well (I do have to keep saying that to myself), your remarks are condescending and presumptuous. I think that my BS and MS in manufacturing (with honors) from MIT (with a 4.7/5.0 GPA and TBP/PTS membership) speak for themselves. Heck the two books speak for themselves. It is not my desire to become Walt (Competition Engineering), and work on engine cases my entire life. I enjoy new things, and I am *not* devoted to Porsches either. The next book is on BMWs.

I enjoy doing and learning about new things (whether it be a Nissan truck, a communications satellite, a symphony I haven't heard before, or a Porsche engine. It is not my goal to be 'the best' (although ironically, I do end up there sometimes in certain areas), but to be the best that I can be. I'm not going to spend nine months in an engine class - heck I feel that you can learn way more outside of the classroom. I use almost none of the imperical knowledge of my college degrees in daily life (I do use the thought processes that I learned there though).

As for you, I would suggest that you take Jerry Wood's engine rebuilding class - I think you will learn a lot more via this venue than your class in Orange County...

-Wayne

P.S. I have about 500 hrs experience in machine shops with Bridgeports and CNC machines.

snowman · 06-10-2003, 08:11 PM

Then you have not learned enough.

snowman · 09:33 PM

PS, I really want to add to my statement, but I cannot. There is no way to add to this. IF you do not understand what I have said, and it is VERY DEEP philosophically (pardon the spelling) you will eventually. If you are making a living at something, its your DUTY to be the best. Not simply a good stab, but the best.

How do you know when you have arrived at this mystic level of competance?

Its when people will lay milliions of bucks on the line, all on your word. I hit this many years ago in my field, its like a fairy tale, but real. Thats the result of laying your life on the line for a field of study. I have had several MIT grads work for me, all outstanding in one way or another but here were some who were emotional cripples for one reason or another. they did eventually grow out of it but at age 40 or so. In other words the predigree is important, and significant, but you never know when you have really learned what there is to learn, untill that point where you can acknowledge it. You are NOT it the catagory I just mentioned, far above it, I think, but you have not arrived yet, either. This is demonstrated by your posts.

This anaylsis is not derogatory, by any means, in fact you are far above the average mortal, but the deep, and I really mean deep meanings have escaped you at this point. By the way this does not reflect on my own standing in most ways. It is always easire to criticise one, to analyze why one is not perfact, than to become the exhaulted one.

Wayne,
You are a guru of used and new Porsche parts. Like it or not, thats what you are at this time. Be Proud of what you are. You are signigicant in the world at this time due to Porsxhe parts!!! Many people would die to be the same as you are.
Wow, I did not mean to get off into this the way I did, but oh, well, age has its advantages. Tomorrow I will have forgotten it all togather.

speeder · speeder's Garage

Well, this whole thread has me bewildered. How on earth did this case ever get in such a predicament? Were all of the studs broken off flush w/ the case? (So that one could not grab w/ a stud extractor)? Which case is this? Aluminum or Mag?

I removed all 12 of my lower dilivar studs, including two broken ones, in approx. 15 minutes TOTAL, using the technique John Walker recommends, I learned it here on this BBS. I brought my case down to a muffler shop, (for their torch), showed the guy where to heat it, and twisted the studs out so fast it made my head spin. Maybe I got lucky, but my studs were installed in Stuttgart like all others. I used a borrowed snap-on extractor, spun 'em out.

At first the muffler guy didn't want to heat my case, (afraid he'd ruin it), but thanks to other's experience and knowledge here I confidently told him, "this is not an experiment. It is a proven technique for removing the studs". And sure enough, they spun out way before any excessive heating of the case occured.

That would be the difference between theory and application, JW is long on "application".

Wayne 962 · Wayne 962's Garage

"Many people would die to be the same as you are." Highly doubtful.

Jack, I don't know what's going on in your head, and frankly, I don't really care. I'm quite happy with my own position here in life. I think that I have accomplished quite a lot. I am happy with my new wife and I'm excited about Pelican continuing to grow. I've managed to turn a hobby of mine into a thriving business. No, I have not reached the 'higher alter' of conciousness, nor at this time do I so desire to.

I'm going to start deleting your posts in the future if they continue to be wildly off topic. At the very least, I will move them to the OT forum, for they don't belong here.

-Wayne