What sealer I can use to seals the camshaft housing?

[Nitrometano]

I use a Loctite Aviation Engine Case Sealer for the camshafts housings. Since one year later they become to leak. Right know I'm rebuilding a 2.7 911 engine. I don't know if I can use Cooper silicon Gasket Maker for the housings indeed using Dow Corning sealer or Loctite 754. I can use the Copper Gasket Maker to seals the camshafts housings?

[ChrisBennet]

I use Loctite 518, two P-car mechanics I know use 574 (as did the factory), I hear Andial used Yamabond on the 962's (ThreeBond makes it, forget the #). I think pretty much anything will work as long as the surfaces are truly flat and clean. All it takes is a burr from prying the heads off the cam carrier to make it leak.
The amount of sealant in there is so thin (from the factory) that you might think they were assembled dry.
This sealant is exposed to engine oil so any leftover sealant that hardens (like RTV) can enter the oil system. I know people use the Dow Corning 730 (an RTV) but the thought of a bit of that plugging an oil squirter would keep me awake at night. I'll stick with anerobic (hardens in the absence of air) sealants like the Loctite products.
-Chris

[anh911]

Loctite 574 and what Chris said about smooth as a baby's butt.

[Nitrometano]

Whats the difference between Loctite 518 and Loctite 574?

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by Nitrometano
Whats the difference between Loctite 518 and Loctite 574?

Loctite 518: red, seals wider cracks, looks like red sticky gel toothpast, available at NAPA
Loctite 574: orange, for thin cracks, looks like orange cheese whiz, not carried in stores (that I've ever seen). Wurth also makes an equivelent.
-Chris

[snowman]

Both 518 and 574 are overpriced, way overpriced, but oh well. I have found that in my experience 518 is more available, better, and works in every case sealing application that 574 is specified.

[Wayne 962]

Overpriced? 574 is like $10 a tube. I don't understand why people decide to experiment with the sealants on their engines - many of them turn up leaking later on.

The 574 is tried and true, and it works if applied properly. Many experts use this stuff, and it's factory recommended. What more could you want?

-Wayne

[snowman]

How about $5 a tube? But most of the prices I run across are more like $20 per smallest available tube, either 518 or 574

This thread brings up a question of mine. Is there any REAL difference between 518 and 574?? The 518 is slightly gooey er, but thats all I can see.

[Wayne 962]

Check the Loctite website - they have material datasheets available on all of their sealants...

The main question is usually the 573 vs. 574. Porsche has a picture of the 573 being used in their original 911 factory workshop manuals. In the later Carrera manuals, it's 574. The only difference, according to Loctite, is the set time - off the top of my head, the 574 is a quicker setting sealant...

-Wayne

[KTL]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
............I don't understand why people decide to experiment with the sealants on their engines - many of them turn up leaking later on.

The 574 is tried and true, and it works if applied properly. Many experts use this stuff, and it's factory recommended. What more could you want?

-Wayne

I don't think it's always a matter of experimenting. Good to know what else works if you're in a pinch and can't get the tried and true stuff. Plus, if an equivalent is locally available, why not use it instead of bothering with the delay of ordering and delivery?

I'm certainly not disagreeing with the "the factory stuff is the stuff that works" approach. As long as you choose an alternative sealant that is correct for this application, it should work. Where problems arise is when people get silly and use something like Permatex UltraBlue RTV or Curil T where it shouldn't be used. cstreit recently took apart a motor with a case sealed via Curil T. That doesn't seem right......... I know the instructions say it's for sealing metal flanges and the like. That stuff is sticky as sticky gets and cleanup is sometimes a real mess

[snowman]

Hard to tell what really works. I know a real Porsche mechanic, specalist, owns his own shop, does lots of Porsche engines and he swears by just plain Ultra Grey RTV for everything, including the case. I can't even bring myself to try the case halves with this stuff, but again I know and trust this guy, as he is pretty sucessfull.

[NevenM]

This looks like a flame fest

I intend using Wurth Motoplast for all the metal to metal seals, Case, Cylinder bases and Cam Carriers to heads, The factory didn't use sealant on the cylinder bases (just a copper gasket), prob due to the
temperature, but you can now. Also the factory never encountered rebuilding engines at the stage we are, if you read their recommendations it is "buy a new engine", so in effect we are writing the
rules. I'd be interested on other comments on cam carriers 'cause I have not found them to be flat. The seem to be twisted around the cam but bolt up ok without binding

The arguement that 'thats what the factory used' is relatively fatuous
Its 31 years since my engine was built by the factory, things have changed

Neven
73 911E
70 914/6

[Wayne 962]

Originally posted by NevenM
The arguement that 'thats what the factory used' is relatively fatuous Its 31 years since my engine was built by the factory, things have changed

Poppycock. Not only does the factory recommend this stuff in *all* of the factory manuals since 1965, it also has a proven track record with many, many engine builders. Why mess with what works? If the case leaks as a result, then it's because of improper preparation or application - not the Loctite.

There is nothing wrong with using the Loctite 574 and when used during a proper assembly, you will have a leak-free engine. I don't understand why people are so bent on improving on something that is not broken.

The Dow Corning stuff has a proven track record as well, but it's $80 a tube.

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

Originally posted by KTL
I don't think it's always a matter of experimenting. Good to know what else works if you're in a pinch and can't get the tried and true stuff. Plus, if an equivalent is locally available, why not use it instead of bothering with the delay of ordering and delivery?

Sorry, but that's a really poor argument. When was the last time you were stranded in the wilderness and needed a container of Loctite 574? These engines are not slapped together in a day - you need to take hours of preparation and cleaning in order to do it right. In a pinch? Since when is waiting 2-3 days for a package worth the risk of having a leaky engine?

I just don't get it. The Loctite 574 is cheap, readily available, has a sturdy reliable reputation, is used by many mechanics, is recommended by the factory, and is available here at Pelican. I just don't really quite understand why this topic comes up so often...

-Wayne

[NevenM]

Wayne

The factory never wrote a 'how to rebuild your porsche engine' book, you did, But I still stand by the fact that we do a lot of things the factory don't recommend or specify and picking some things out of a factory manual and holding them as gospel because the 'factory did it that way' defies logic, I find no mention of Curil-T in the 'factory' manual

Neven

[NevenM]

Wayne

Which bit was 'Poppycock'?

Neven

[KTL]

This topic comes up because sometimes there's more than one way to do things.

I disagree that my comment is a poor argument. In fact I contest that it is a perfectly good and valid argument.

I think you're over-embellshing on my "in a pinch" comment. In a pinch could mean you're all ready to go and would you look at that? My bottle of Loctite is missing, been sitting open and I don't trust it, the dog ate it, ............whatever. In a pinch has nothing to do with my preparation of the engine components prior to the sealing of the case halves and thereby risking a leaky engine. That's questioning my preparation skills, which is not necessarily the topic at hand here.

I equate sealants to greases in the sense that there are many different types, made by many different manufacturers. Some of these sealants, while made by different manufacturers, are indeed interchangeable. 574 is described as a flange sealant. There are so many flange sealants for metal to metal contact out there it's silly. Even within the Loctite product line where the anaerobic sealants basically vary with strength, cure time and temp. range. Look at the examples of the many different sealants people have used with success:

>Curil K2 and Dirko (http://www.bus-boys.com/bbzvc.htm). Heck, somebody's used Curil T and it must work because that motor I mentioned isn't the first one the guy ever assembled.

>Dow Corning 730 RTV (you can get it @ McMaster-Carr for $67 , still not cheap)

>Yamabond

>The many Loctites- and there are many, including their line of RTV silicones

>The Ultra Gray RTV silicone (most likely Permatex since they're big on the "Ultra" labelling) mentioned above

>Wurth Motoplast

I'm sure there's other products that people have used with success. Heck, sometimes when a product is used for something other than it's recommended application, the product can be found to work! I'd venture to guess that Porsche chose the Loctite 573, 574 as their sealant of choice simply because it met their requirements. Doesn't mean that there isn't another product out there than can also do the job. It's nice to know alternatives sometimes. Especially when you can get a sealant at a local supplier instead of having to order and wait for it. 'Cause while i'm waiting on my 574, my case halves are getting dusty and i'll have to clean them all over again...........

[Porsche_monkey]

If you guys are hoping to change Wayne's mind, get over it, it won't happen. A lot of similar issues have arisen on this (ie his) web-site. I believe his position always is 'my way works why screw around and try other things?'.

Can you imagine the outcry if he suggested something he hadn't tried, then it didn't work? What does he have to gain by suggesting methods he isn't 100% sure of?

It's his web-site, if you want to try something else ( re-ringing alusil, different sealants, teflon paste instead of tape etc.)good luck to you, go right ahead, but don't expect Wayne to agree. IMO that's not fair to 'our host'

[ChrisBennet]

I think, and this is my personal opinion, that non factory sealants may work "better" in situations where you want or need to skip proper preparation. For example, I check my cam towers with a straight edge but don't go to the trouble of sanding them flat if they look "good enough." To cover my ass I use Loctite 518 which will fill the gaps a little better than 574.

I don't feel comfortable cutting corners on the case itself so I use 574 (or the Wurth equivelent) on the case halves.

I haven't split a mag case motor but I imagine without proper case prep that they would be more likely to leak than an aluminum one. I can see people getting "burned" by this and as a result trying different sealants to compensate for not having the case trued up. A mechanic friend of mine mentioned that a car he had in the shop had a 2.7 Motor Meister motor. I don't remember anything else he said about it but he did say "I don't what that red sealant is they are using is but I will say, that case didn't leak."

I read that Andial used Yamabond on the 962 cam towers because of they found that the 574 wasn't working in that application.

Other than that, I see no compelling reason to save a few bucks (very, very few bucks BTW) using a product that has no demonstrated superiority.


-Chris