Motormeister

[TargaT]

Anybody had any experiences with Motormeister, good or bad? Particularly with shipping engines to them for rebuilding. I am located in Canada.

Thanks, Joe

[konish]

Joe,
Do yourself a favor..do a search on the site and you'll see how bad these guys are. Actually, I think it borderlines on criminal. Call Henry at Supertec instead. He contributes regularly here and seems like an above board guy. Might be more expensive but nothing is more expensive when it comes to building these motors than to have a reputable shop un-F&%K motormeisters work. In fact, if a heads up owner rebuilt his own motor with documentation in his garage I would EASILY take that over a "professioanlly rebuilt" motormeister POS.

R/
Dustin

[TargaT]

I've been doing a lot of homework in preparation of my own rebuild but their pricing seemed very reasonable and their website very impressive. Apparently they do a huge volume of motors 200-300 per year.

Joe

[konish]

Apparently they do...did the guys at Mototmesiter tell you that? Please make a quick search on this bbs as part of your homework. Their site does look good and their prices seem incredible. Anyway, just remember: even if you polish a turd, its still just a turd. I suspect you have your own mind made up about this from your comments....seriously, I wish you luck in whatever decision you make.

R/
Dustin

[adomakin]

im not even in the states and ive heard of some real horror stories about theire work/customer relations on this site. As Konish says, do a search and find out for yourself

Andy

[Steve@Rennsport]

TargaT;

We've seen 3 Motormeister engines here to be redone and I would not take a lawn mower engine there, based on what I've seen first-hand.

The best advice I can offer you sir, is that you get what you pay for. There are no shortcuts to rebuild these engines correctly, if you want it to last as long as the original.

[Carrera3.5L]

I have a friend that worked at MotorMeister for about a month a few years back. You definitely get what you pay for and sometimes you pay for something you don't get. Shortcut central.

Used rods from high mileage motors (never reconditioned), oil pumps that came from engine grenades and not cleaned, used piston & cylinders that are out tolerance, the list goes on...

My buddy didn't fit the employee profile, since he apparently had a heart (and some pride!).

I believe that they sell a ton of engines, there are alot of bottom feeders and non P-car enthusiasts out there just trying to save a buck. I bet guys that are attempting to sell their car are the best clients of MotorMeister, as they can get a "rebuild" done dirt cheap and don't care what happens 10K later when they are no longer in possession of it. In fact, MotorMeister may get the job again and rebuild the same engine again!

[Steve@Rennsport]

TargaT;

A word about rebuilt-overhauled engines:

"Rebuilt" - Reconditioned"…………What do they mean?

These words have different meanings for each individual, and nobody seems to know exactly what their expectations should be. The word "rebuilt",.... is often bandied about when an engine is to be rebuilt. I would offer some advice and the benefit of some professional experience in this field.

The word "Rebuilt" can be used to describe a whole range of conditions that range from "like-new" to "simply cleaner." One must carefully decide what constitutes truly "rebuilt." There are some parts should never be reused and there are others that can be reconditioned to extend their lifespan.

For example, pistons can’t be rebuilt any more than sparkplugs can be. If a piston is worn enough for the piston-to-cylinder wall clearance to be at or near tolerance or the ring-land grooves are found to be too wide for new rings, one really must replace the pistons with new parts.

Brake calipers, alternators, starters and the like can have some internal parts replaced to make them function again without spending the money for an entire new unit. For folks who are on a strict budget (and who isn’t?), this may be an acceptable solution. Certain fuel-injection parts can be changed/cleaned without incurring large labor costs, and their performance can be monitored easily in case the rebuilt/reconditioned part doesn’t last very long.

Other items are just penny-wise and pound-foolish to rebuild if they are labor-intensive to change/repair or have dire consequences if they fail at an inconvenient time or place.

An example of this might of this might be installing a used or rebuilt fuel pump. The folly of using a rebuilt fuel pump becomes obvious when you are stranded 200 miles from a replacement. The same can be said of using a rebuilt clutch that fails when you are far away from a shop that can install a new one. Some items simply shouldn’t be rebuilt when you are using your car at or
near its limit on the track or street. Wheel bearings, certain brake parts, and some suspension parts fall into this category.

The single most expensive part of any Porsche is its engine. Everyone has his or her own expectation of how long a "rebuilt" engine should last before needing to be disassembled once again, and a "rebuilt" engine can last anywhere from 5,000 to 200,000 miles depending upon what new parts were used in the rebuild and who performed it.

For street engines, I feel that a proper rebuild should last as long or even longer than the original OEM powerplant. To this end, certain parts cannot be reused if the owner expects the rebuilt engine to perform as new and be as durable as the original Factory engine. Considering the normal labor charged by dealers, independent shops or high-performance specialists, this is a reasonable expectation. Our shop charges 40-45 hours of time to disassemble, clean, rebuild, and reassemble an entire engine and that figure does not include machine work. (The variation exists between naturally aspirated and turbocharged engines.)

This figure doesn’t vary much, since it takes the same amount of time to measure, assemble, install, and set up everything regardless of whether it’s a ‘70s 2.2 or a late-‘90s 3.6. If a "rebuild" can cost as little as $4,000 or as much as $14,000 with the labor do this job properly, then the difference lies in the cost of the parts that were used during this job—in the case of Porsches, its generally a function of whether the parts were new or reconditioned, OEM, or cheap substitutes.

Repairing an otherwise healthy engine is a different thing altogether. For instance, many 3.2 and 3.6 litre engines simply need new valve guides to reach their potential lifespan and to that end, a top overhaul may be all that is necessary. It would be irresponsible for the shop not to also inspect and replace any worn valves and check the valve springs for proper seat pressures.

Nikasil cylinders last a very long time, and in some cases, a simple ring replacement will ensure that the engine has good compression until major overhaul time if the pistons are still serviceable.

It’s important to realize that when it’s time to rebuild the engine "as new", using "recycled" or worn parts is not economical or prudent if you wish to achieve the maximum engine life and restore the original performance to the car. There are no shortcuts whatsoever.

An honest-to-God, properly rebuilt engine should have new internals to perform as such and last as long. Here are just a few of the parts that we would replace new—not "reconditioned"--ones:

Pistons, rings & cylinders

Valves (as needed)

Valve springs
Valve guides & seals

Cam chains, ramps & tensioners

Chain sprockets and idlers

Intermediate shaft (as needed)

All engine bearings

New ARP rod bolts and pin bushings

This doesn’t include machine work and other operations to ensure that the engine is in as-new condition or any modifications made to increase
performance.

So when you select a shop to rebuild the engine in your car, here are some things to think about:

1) Labor is a small part of the total cost of a proper rebuild. If the overall cost looks too good to be true, then something is wrong. New OEM Porsche parts are not cheap. You get what you pay for. Never overlook the experience required for a quality rebuild of ANY 911 engine.

2) Ask the shop whether they use new or reconditioned parts. What parts ARE new? What machine work operations do they do? You must have full confidence in the shop that performs the work for you, and whether or not the owners are nice guys is immaterial. They must be competent and honest.

3) Get references from previous customers. Porsche ownership is an extended family, and there are some great resources out there through the PCA & the internet, so use them carefully. The PCA National Tech Committee is just one of them at your disposal. Talk to people who KNOW engines, not just another person who may not know any more
than you do about this subject. This takes diligence. Remember, its your money that’s at stake!

4) Nobody likes to be without their "baby" for any longer than necessary, but be wary of anyone who promises short turnaround times. It simply_takes_time_to do this entire job properly and these are not as simple to do as an American V-8.

Porsche ownership comes at a premium, and you expect appropriate levels of engineering and execution. Don’t be in a hurry. If you need
cardiac-bypass surgery, is TIME the most important criterion or having the job done correctly?

Good luck and I hope this helps.

(Please forgive my long windedness,... )

[adomakin]

wise words Steve. im currently (although theres a baby on the way so.....) amassing all the parts required to rebuild a 3.3 turbo engine and the parts bill so far is at about £4000. thats uk sterling! yes there has been some performance purchases but nothing wild. i started out trying to do this on a budget and in 3 months. now ive forgotten the budget and given myself a year. It cant be done on a budget if you want a reliable engine and i certainly wouldn't rush the build either.

Andy

[garibaldi]

There is such thing as an overpriced oil change, you know where you take the entire motor apart to just change the oil, and nothing else.

Thats some hefty volume, 200-300 per year, that almost a motor per day when they woudl be crankin. It takes me about one day to write up the bill when I am done with a motor. Thats simply amazing, the quality and attention to detail must be second to none, I would love to see the operation first hand, based on all of the wonderful things I have heard about that outfit.

[mtelliott]

I have no knowledge or experience with Motormeister. But, I want to offer a dissenting opinion.

I believe that the cost of rebuilding an engine could be done for $4000 if everything was fine and you just wanted to do the basics. If you created a factory line approach to it, hired cheaper labor with an expert overseeing the operation, I believe that it could be done. As long as you test it on a bench/stand and inspect.

However, I don’t ever believe that an engine can be rebuilt without many things being replaced. You have to remember, these engines have at least 20+ years on them at this point. There are many things that are going to be wrong with them besides just the core including vacuum lines, fuel lines, electrical wires, ancillary parts, etc.

And my guess is that Motormeister would say the same. I imagine that their base cost is if everything is fine. However, as soon as they start tearing apart the engine, your bill is going to add up. In the end, you might save some money, but the shipping will probably make it break even at best.

I’ve never seen someone from Motormeister on the forum however I would love to hear his or her input.

Michael

[snowman]

I have done a simple 2.2T engine, nothing needed except rings (there was a recent rebuild and they bead blasted the case, certain disaster) THe crank was reground, re nitrited, shot peened, new bearings, gaskets, valve guides, some valves, valve springs, chain rails, tensioner upgrade, oil mods balanceing, rod reconditioning, shotpeening. ALL labor was FREE, Ie Idid it. It still cost almost $3,000 WHOLESALE! Thats about 1/3 to 1/2 your cost. In other words anything less than about $8k to $10K from a shop would be highly suspect. In other words a "good" rebuild, meaning replacing ALL out of spec or nearly out of spec parts, using good parts, no new cylinders/pistons, which most likely would need replacement with many miles at more than $3k in parts alone, should be a $10K job min, if done right, most likely $15k for the typical engine. Can ANYONE do it for $4 to 6K? I don't think so. Only if your labor is free, nothing much is wrong, and you get your parts at real wholesale could you do this.

[Porsche_monkey]

Joe, buy Waynes book. You might want to do the rebuild yourself, even if you send it out, you can use the info in the book.

[TargaT]

Thanks everybody for your valuable inputs. I do already have Waynes' book. Doing my own rebuild was my initial plan and is probably where I'm going. I have rebuilt motors but I am new to Porsche. There are a few good local builders who I can fall back on if I need to. Dealing with any potential problems long distance doesn't seem to make sense anyway. I've been doing my homework and have a few possible upgrades that I'm looking at and will post them on a separate thread.

Thanks, Joe

[Porsche_monkey]

Joe, where abouts are you?

[TargaT]

I'm in Burlington, Ontario

[Porsche_monkey]

I'll send you my phone number in a PM.

[Phoenix]

If enough people who have had problems with MM get together, perhaps we could file a class action suit and shut them down permanently and keep them from buring anyone else. No pun intended.

[Porsche_monkey]

If they do 200 a year how many do you think are a 'problem'?

[1fastredsc]

Originally posted by garibaldi
There is such thing as an overpriced oil change, you know where you take the entire motor apart to just change the oil, and nothing else.

Thats some hefty volume, 200-300 per year, that almost a motor per day when they woudl be crankin. It takes me about one day to write up the bill when I am done with a motor. Thats simply amazing, the quality and attention to detail must be second to none, I would love to see the operation first hand, based on all of the wonderful things I have heard about that outfit.

The sweet taste of sarcasm.