Who do you believe?

10-12-2004, 01:32 PM

I finally get about 1,000 miles on my newly rebuilt 2.7 and take it in for its first oil change and lifter adjustment. The mechanic doing the tune up valve thing is not the same shop that did the rebuild. So, this guy says, "I can't adjust the valves because the engine is too tight to turn over even with a 3 foot breaker bar." He says its because the rebuild shop didn't line bore the case and he's willing to bet that the bearings will be wearing differently. So I ask the rebuild shop and they say they always line bore. They say "Mag cases move alot until they are seated"

Hmmm, who do you believe?

Is there a problem not adjusting the valves now? Can I wait?

mtelliott · 10-12-2004, 01:42 PM

How could the starter turn it over to run if they can't turn it over with a 3' breaker bar. I'm missing something here.

KobaltBlau · 10-12-2004, 01:44 PM

I smell BS, several reasons. For one, rying to turn an engine over with a 3 foot breaker bar is something to do with extreme caution, if ever.

10-12-2004, 01:48 PM

Quote:

How could the starter turn it over to run if they can't turn it over with a 3' breaker bar.

The rebuilder said the starter is weaker than the breaker bar.

Quote:

I smell BS, several reasons

I wish I knew more about these engines. Both shops aren't being very professional by putting down each other.

Do you think I can go for a while without adjusting the valves?

KobaltBlau · 10-12-2004, 01:53 PM

So will the engine turn over with the starter?

I'm not sure where Grass Valley is. Maybe some board members could help you to a different sthop. If you're near LA, it's a slam dunk.

10-12-2004, 01:58 PM

Yup, the engine turns over fine. Tight, but hey, it's new it should be a little tight--right??

mtelliott · 10-12-2004, 02:19 PM

My engine turns over easily with just a breaker bar. Of course, it's a 3.0 and not subject to the mag case problems. But I'm with Kobalt, something is fishy.

Hopefully one of the experts will chime in and lend some advice. My biggest asset is that I bump your post to the top again. I've built one engine, they've built thousands.

Michael

ChrisBennet · ChrisBennet's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by long board
Yup, the engine turns over fine. Tight, but hey, it's new it should be a little tight--right??

The motor should turn over easily except for the resistance of compressing the air in the cylinder. If the plugs are out it should turn over easily with a wrench on the pulley nut. (You will need to squeeze the fan belt so it doesn't slip.)

Bearings do not "break in". The crank journals should not be even be touching the bearings unless the motor is turned off.

That part about "Mag cases move alot until they are seated" sounds pretty fishy to me.

I can't imagine putting a 3 ft breaker bar on the motor to turn it over but hey, I don't get out much so I'll reserve judgement. Sounds a recipe for breaking something.

-Chris

KobaltBlau · 10-12-2004, 02:37 PM

It should be easy to turn the engine over with a breaker bar if it turns over with the starter, especially with the plugs out.

I looked your town up, are you taking it to shops in sacramento? If the car drives OK not being able to turn the engine over with a breaker bar sounds very odd to me.

10-12-2004, 02:42 PM

Grass Valley is 50 miles northeast of Sacramento, in the foothills. My engine was done by a shop in Southern California (which will remain nameless for now) and I am using a shop in a nearby town, but not in Sacramento. I've built a few V8s and never had this conundrum

john walker's workshop · 10-12-2004, 03:44 PM

you can't get a breaker bar and socket down on the pulley nut because there isn't any room. pull the plugs and see if it can be turned clockwise by the fan nut while pressing in on the right side of the belt. it should turn easily if the crank isn't binding in the main bearings.

dtw · 10-12-2004, 05:37 PM

And I'll ask the question on everyone's mind:

Who built the motor?

10-12-2004, 06:06 PM

I would rather wait until the issue is resolved. I really don't want to hurt my chances of getting it fixed one way or another. I happen to know that both shops read this forum. This was the answer from the builder after I informed them of the situation:

Quote:

Case is STD/STD and if starter (which is less strong then a huge breakr bar) can turn it, its fine just still tight and will be seating it self. Mag cases move alot until they are seated, that is why everyone line bores if it needs it or not, but actually will not be as tight compared to a factory STD/STD crankshaft and case. Simple change oil and filter and run it! New NGK plugs would not hurt either I suggest replace them to.

cstreit · cstreit's Garage

Quote:

Mag cases move alot until they are seated"[

Seated?!? A case doesn't "seat". It's either straight or it's not. "Seating" implies that it should move into position at some point. The case sealant hardens in less than an hour, so if the case were to shift or move, it would spring leaks everywhere.

Want to check it? Pull the plugs and turn it over, see how much torque it takes from a wrench on the crank pulley to turn it over.

competentone · 10-13-2004, 06:37 AM

Quote:

So, this guy says, "I can't adjust the valves because the engine is too tight to turn over even with a 3 foot breaker bar."

Was the car in gear with the parking brake set?

Quote:

you can't get a breaker bar and socket down on the pulley nut because there isn't any room

Maybe it was just a box wrench with a length of pipe slid over the free end?

Jeff Alton · 10-13-2004, 10:49 AM

Tell him to take it out of gear!

Jeff

mtelliott · 10-13-2004, 12:02 PM

Heck, even if it was in gear and the e-brake on, with a 3' breaker bar, I'm surprised it didn't run over him.

john walker's workshop · 12:56 PM

bring it back to the rebuilder and ask him to show you how easy it turns over, and i don't mean by the starter.
a crank should turn easily by hand when the case is all torqued up. (case and crank only, before pistons are attached). if it binds, or is hard to get going initially, but then turns somewhat easier, it's binding in the bearings because the case mainline is not straight. cases don't get better over the breakin period, and bearings are not supposed to "wear in" either. the crank rides on a cushion of oil and doesn't even touch the bearing when everything is in order. 2.7s are famous for this, and the cases need a bunch of machine work to be usable.

Henry Schmidt · Henry Schmidt's Garage

John is correct. The crank should turn easily on a rebuilt engine. I have seen many rebuilds that would turn over with the starter but not by hand.
In every instance (except one) the case was not line bored. The one exception was when an after market set of rings was put on Mahle pistons and the ring was too deep for the piston groove making the piston almost impossible to move in the cylinder. How that thing got assembled I'll never know. I even saw one shop tighten the 8 mm case bolts on a 2.7 during a routine service and that engine wouldn't turn over even with the starter.
Anyway, back to the issue at hand. One shop built the engine (maybe with a warranty) the other shop just wants to adjust the valves. If you need to trust one, trust the shop with no motive to lie.
Now it's possible that both shops are marginal, so you'll have to judge that yourself.

dtw · 10-13-2004, 06:18 PM

Just as a reference point, my rebuilt 2.4 can be pushed over with just an open palm on the end of a 19mm wrench, and that's with all the plugs installed. Any shop that tells you what you quoted above is completely full of shyte. Time to confirm how easily you engine does or doesn't turn over in person, and then start taking serious action if your fears are confirmed.