Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > 911 Engine Rebuilding Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Porschekid962's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: pasadena/novato
Posts: 1,510
Garage
Send a message via AIM to Porschekid962 Send a message via Yahoo to Porschekid962
different(?) late night motor idea....

I was just reading over some of the 3.0/3.2/3.4 engine rebuild ideas. So I came up with a few ideas and some questions along the way.

If I take a 3.0sc engine, put 98mm RSR high comp style pistons and cylinders can I put in a different crank to bring the displacement back down to 3.0 litres?

So go up in one way but bring it back down in another, I wonder though if the piston moves too far away from the head will the CR drop dramatically and if so is there way to bring the cylinder and head closer to the crank to raise the CR back up to around 12:1?

I have always liked the idea of a 3.0 RSR engine but thought by boring and destroking a 3.0 would give a very rev happy engine. Then throw MFI on top with twin plugs and have fun.

Has anyone done something like this or am I just flailing in the dark?
__________________
74 911s neverending story. two feet and a jetta for now.
Old 12-06-2004, 11:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Licensed User
 
Shuie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ....down Highway 61
Posts: 6,441
Henry has mentioned building similar 3.1 and 2.8 engines on the early turbo case before.

A 66mm crank and 98mm P&Cs would give you a short stroke 3.0. You would need a 930/02 or a 930/52 Carrera 3.0 or early turbo case to start with. I have no idea what the compression ratio would be but I think you would need custom pistons.

Last edited by Shuie; 12-07-2004 at 04:25 AM..
Old 12-07-2004, 04:21 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Still Doin Time
 
asphaltgambler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Nokesville, Va.
Posts: 5,452
This engine combo would depend a lot on your driving style and how much street vs track time the car will see. MO. If you build a small displacement high rpm engine you will have to shorten the final drive ratio to keep it on-the-revs and install close ratio gear set to minimize rpm drop in-between gear changes. That will add big $$ to your build.
__________________
'07 Jeep SRT-8 - Hauls groceries and Hauls *ss
'85 Guards Red Targa - F@#king Money Pit
'95 Road King w/117ci - No time to ride, see above
'77 Sportster Pro-Street Drag Bike w/93ci - Sold to collector
'72 Yamaha CS5 200 Twin - Sold to fellow Pelicanite
Old 12-07-2004, 08:37 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Porschekid962's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: pasadena/novato
Posts: 1,510
Garage
Send a message via AIM to Porschekid962 Send a message via Yahoo to Porschekid962
First off the case I would be using is a 78 SC. It would come out of my dads car and then he is either getting a 3.2 or more likely a 3.6. So I have this nice clean non leaking 3.0 to play with. I figured I can start stockpiling parts and when I have everything drop it out and rebuild it. I like to drive up in the revs and my car will most likely see a good deal of track time. The problem I see with the 66mm crank and then 98mm piston setup is con rods versus piston size. I would prefer to use a short skirt piston so I figure I would need some long custom con rods to make it all work.

Shoot, at this point Im thinking the 3.0 case, 3.2 crank and 98mm p&c's and call it a day. As far as the tranny goes it will get an overhaul when the engine is being built so they will play nicely together.

So I guess my question is would you rather have a rev happy RSR style 3.0 or a 3.4 with some low end grunt? I think the 3.4 would be much easier to drive on the street because milder cams could be used to get the same or more hp than the 3.0ss.

Ah the options!
__________________
74 911s neverending story. two feet and a jetta for now.
Old 12-07-2004, 03:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Still Doin Time
 
asphaltgambler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Nokesville, Va.
Posts: 5,452
Size matters!! Period!
__________________
'07 Jeep SRT-8 - Hauls groceries and Hauls *ss
'85 Guards Red Targa - F@#king Money Pit
'95 Road King w/117ci - No time to ride, see above
'77 Sportster Pro-Street Drag Bike w/93ci - Sold to collector
'72 Yamaha CS5 200 Twin - Sold to fellow Pelicanite
Old 12-07-2004, 03:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Porschekid962's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: pasadena/novato
Posts: 1,510
Garage
Send a message via AIM to Porschekid962 Send a message via Yahoo to Porschekid962
Oh great, and everyone's been tellin me it's how ya use it. HAHA, yeah I suppose your right in some respects but I have heard pro's and cons to big and small motors alike.
__________________
74 911s neverending story. two feet and a jetta for now.
Old 12-07-2004, 04:54 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1,202
Garage
if you already have a 3.0 litre perhaps you should build a 3.2MFI which with high comp and lightweight components the motor will be real revvy.

IMO


Michael
Old 12-07-2004, 06:47 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Licensed User
 
Shuie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ....down Highway 61
Posts: 6,441
Quote:
Originally posted by Porschekid962
First off the case I would be using is a 78 SC......
You have to use a 9 bolt 70.4mm or a 74mm crank with this case. I think you can also put a 3.6 (76mm???) crank in this case, but someone else will have to confirm.

Quote:
Shoot, at this point Im thinking the 3.0 case, 3.2 crank and 98mm p&c's and call it a day.
Good idea, but dont forget the 3.2 Carrera rods. These are not the same 98mm pistons used to go from a 3.0 to a 3.2 short stroke. The 98mm pistons that were built for the 3.2 Carrera use a 23mm wristpin. Be prepared for an effective compression bump if you use them with SC heads or make sure you budget for twin plugs. Talk to 'rdane' if you go down this path, he's BTDT.

Quote:
So I guess my question is would you rather have a rev happy RSR style 3.0 or a 3.4 with some low end grunt? [/B]
I want the rev happy motor, but I also want to drive it on the street. Not a good idea. If its a street car, Id drive the 3.0 until it broke.

good luck, and keep us updated as you progress
Old 12-07-2004, 07:25 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
up-fixing der car(ma)
 
YTNUKLR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 3,743
Garage
Send a message via AIM to YTNUKLR
First off, I don't think you can put a 66mm crank in an SC motor unless you have the 962 crankshaft $$$$$$$$ with the 9-bolt flywheel end.

FOR THE AMOUNT OF MONEY, I would build this:
3.0-3.2 case
3.0 SC 9-bolt crank
USED but good high-cr JE/RSR/whatever pistons
3.2 cylinders, used
standard-port 3.2 heads (40/38--pretty big already)
Porsche factory 3.0 RSR 'Sprint' camshafts (4bearing)
single plug
Webers (46IDA)
I would think such an engine would a) be fine on the street, better than a 98x66 anyway, b) probably worth ~285 hp, c) it screams to 8k, and d) it actually has a spec. when you talk about it, ie. "I have a 3.0 RSR engine" and everyone knows what RSR means....
another option if you have money is to substitute in 98s, they're just more expensive but you'll have a short-stroke 3.2. MFI is another cool thing that is expensive.
Old 12-07-2004, 07:27 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Licensed User
 
Shuie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ....down Highway 61
Posts: 6,441
oh, I forgot to mention to add $3k minimum worth of additional refurb and machine work if you want MFI on a 3.0 or larger engine. That doesnt include any of the core induction system.


I've been pricing this stuff out for a while, heres how it has broken down so far:

core pump - trade my 2.4 + some cash
rebuild core - $1000
core magnesium stacks - $200
core mag throttle bodies - $200
bore and rebuild throttle bodies - $1400
bore mag stacks - $400
linkage, injectors, cold start system - use existing
add drive gear to 4 bearing cam - $125
modify cam housing - still unknown ??
machine heads for MFI injectors - $350
PMO 46mm air horns - ????

I think I could do the MFI on my 3.2 short stroke for around $4500 . Keep in mind that I have a core MFI system to start with though. I would bet on it costing an even $5k if you dont have a good core system to start with. I hate to say this, but adding stuff like that up in my head makes me real happy I have a set of webers that are already paid for.

Last edited by Shuie; 12-07-2004 at 07:50 PM..
Old 12-07-2004, 07:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Porschekid962's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: pasadena/novato
Posts: 1,510
Garage
Send a message via AIM to Porschekid962 Send a message via Yahoo to Porschekid962
WOW, I really didnt think the MFI would be that expensive. Dad wants to ditch the CIS. At that point going the extra grand for an ITB EFI setup is a much easier step. That way if the engine changes again I dont have to pay to have the pump reclibrated. Just more options to explore.

I just ironed out some very base specs with dad over some makers mark.

Ditch CIS for MFI or Steve Weiner ITB setup with DTA or Motec.
3.0 or 3.2 displacement.
3.0 heads ported and polished unless a set of 3.2's at a good price come up
JE or Mahle higher CR pistons about 10:1
Happy cams to liven up the motor, midrange torque and high end power at the demise of low end grunt
SSI's and muffler will stay at this point.

I'm trying to convince him to go after a 3.2 and open it up to 3.4 we shall see!
__________________
74 911s neverending story. two feet and a jetta for now.
Old 12-07-2004, 08:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
up-fixing der car(ma)
 
YTNUKLR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 3,743
Garage
Send a message via AIM to YTNUKLR
Quote:
Originally posted by Shuie
adding stuff like that up in my head makes me real happy I have a set of webers that are already paid for.
Yeah, exactly my point. I always look at building engines FOR THE MONEY. When you build a 3.6 TWin turbo, yea sure you have 700 hp, but it cost you 25 large. That doesn't mean you were smart, it just means you have $$$$! Building a 3.2 with MFI is not NOT smart, but if you look at just how much power you get extra, and what throttle response, ITS GREAT! Until you get to the bottom line. $5,000--and that's what it costs. A cool but incredibly expensive way to go on the 3.0 + engines. I swear by the 46 Webers for such applications, they are big, they dump lots of fuel, you can run really hot cams and they are sub-$1500 if you are lucky!
Old 12-07-2004, 08:27 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Porschekid962's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: pasadena/novato
Posts: 1,510
Garage
Send a message via AIM to Porschekid962 Send a message via Yahoo to Porschekid962
Id love to go the carb route trust me but dad doesnt like the idea of tuning it for the weather changes, yeah and he told me to take the ac out? Kinda funny dont ya think?

So while I have your attention what is a reasonable price for a running and complete 3.2 with brain? Hopefully with the plastic intake runners, then just swap some 98mm p&c's on it, newer cams and a famous SteveW chip.
__________________
74 911s neverending story. two feet and a jetta for now.
Old 12-07-2004, 11:07 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
up-fixing der car(ma)
 
YTNUKLR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 3,743
Garage
Send a message via AIM to YTNUKLR
probably $5k easy, maybe $6k
Old 12-07-2004, 11:33 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Porschekid962's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: pasadena/novato
Posts: 1,510
Garage
Send a message via AIM to Porschekid962 Send a message via Yahoo to Porschekid962
HMMMMMM lets see, I can have MFI or ITB's on a 3.0 possibly 3.2 or have a 3.2 built up to 3.4, EFI, some cams and spend the same or less? Well I think that solved that problem haha.

BTW, I just looked over the gunnar racing website, god those 3.0 RSR engines look awesome, and the 935's, maybe after I win the lottery, a couple times.
__________________
74 911s neverending story. two feet and a jetta for now.
Old 12-07-2004, 11:56 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
 
Carrera3.5L's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,635
Garage
Quote:
Originally posted by Porschekid962
HMMMMMM lets see, I can have MFI or ITB's on a 3.0 possibly 3.2 or have a 3.2 built up to 3.4, EFI, some cams and spend the same or less? Well I think that solved that problem haha.
Good luck either way trying to pass smog in California unless the motor(s) is going in a pre-76 car. Figure in the extra time and expense to put the car back to stock (or close to it) every 2 years.

Ralph
__________________
1988 Carrera w/ 3.5L Twin-Plug

2008 Cayman S (coming soon)
Old 12-08-2004, 09:27 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Porschekid962's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: pasadena/novato
Posts: 1,510
Garage
Send a message via AIM to Porschekid962 Send a message via Yahoo to Porschekid962
Ralph, the car in question is a 74 which makes me happy haha. BTW do you have any dyno numbers from your monster engine yet??? Very curious to see what kinda horses you are making with that oh so nice setup.

Is it much of a pain adapting a 74 harness to work with a motronic car? Do i need to change any of the guages?
__________________
74 911s neverending story. two feet and a jetta for now.
Old 12-08-2004, 09:39 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
BURN-BROS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Camarillo, Ca.
Posts: 2,295
I believe the elusive and expensive 959 crank is what would fit the bill. If I am not mistaken its 66 mm but would fit the later cases. It would be cheaper getting a billet crank made to spec. In between $4500.00 to $6500.00 should get you one made.
__________________
Aaron. F.S. 1965 Solex engine w carbs/cleaner
Burnham Performance
1071 Avenida Acaso suite D Camarillo, Ca.805-240-6931
https://www.instagram.com/burnhamperformance/

Last edited by BURN-BROS; 12-08-2004 at 12:40 PM..
Old 12-08-2004, 12:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Porschekid962's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: pasadena/novato
Posts: 1,510
Garage
Send a message via AIM to Porschekid962 Send a message via Yahoo to Porschekid962
959 crank huh? that would be pretty cool to have in your car, a while ago I wondered if it would be possible to mate the 959 4valves water cooled heads to another air cooled engine, then wayne told me how much the heads are........

So here are my thoughts on the engine now. If we can find a complete 3.2 in good shape, put in the 98m ps and cs, wilder cams and a steve w chip.

2 3.2 longblock with lo miles, steve weiner itb/efi setup with 98mm p's and c's, cams, dta ecu.

3 take the 3.0 up to 3.2, fun cams, retrofit 3.2 plastic intake and ecu or steve weiner itb/efi setup.

Dad is leaning heavily towards the Steve Weiner ITB/EFI setup so i think the induction is nailed now. Because of that I would rather start with a 3.2 and go up to 3.4 with good midrange cams and the highest CR you can use single plug with.
__________________
74 911s neverending story. two feet and a jetta for now.
Old 12-08-2004, 12:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
BURN-BROS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Camarillo, Ca.
Posts: 2,295
All the race parts are relatively rare and expensive. You will find that you can be close to paying for tooling with the price of the part you wish to purchase.

Anybody done a 3.6 case/heads with 3.8 p/cs with a 3.0 crank and custom rods? That would be 3.5 shortstroke if it is possible.
__________________
Aaron. F.S. 1965 Solex engine w carbs/cleaner
Burnham Performance
1071 Avenida Acaso suite D Camarillo, Ca.805-240-6931
https://www.instagram.com/burnhamperformance/
Old 12-08-2004, 01:16 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:05 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.