I tapped my 3.2 VALVES! WHAT NOW?
 

WRENCH IS SAYING $3,000 MAX

What are my options?
What are my "while I am in there" things I should concider?

Motor has just over 100K miles

Should I twin plug it?

Cams and clean up the ports. Since the exhaust must come off it might also be a good time to throw on a nice set of headers.

With basic mods like that you should be able to get a decent amount of extra power.

Twin plugging would normally cost some $$$ but with that new distributor running around that uses the jaguar cap its a bit cheaper than it used to be.

it already has big ports, cams may bump up the HC and mess with emissions. SSIs don't give as much power boost as on an SC, and they won't pass the visual. no converter won't pass visual. best to do a good valve grind and leave it stock, unless you want to swap parts back and forth every 2 years.

Ah, thats right, I didn't pay attention to the fact that BRJ was located in the land of severe emissions testing.

I so love living in an unregulated car emissions state. :D

Not fair, you folks have tornado's that swish away all that polution!

:confused:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bigrubberjeep
[B]Not fair, you folks have tornado's that swish away all that polution!


But at least our ground doesn’t move :D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cgarr
[B] True!

Just curious, who set up camp first in Michigan and said, hey! Let's stay here, it's only 20 below in the winter!

You should really replace the rod bolts. These are a weak link in a 3.2 and since you overreved it there is a very good chance one will fail in the future. They can be replaced without splitting the case just don't drop anything inside.

-Andy

George,

964 cams or 20/21 cams will pass emission tests in CA no problem. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. This would be a good time to have them installed. No need to port the heads, they flow fine for over 300 horsepower. I didn't port them for my 3.5L either.

SSI's or headers will not pass the CA visual and probably not pass the actual dyno test either. If you don't mind getting your hands dirty every two years....either is better then the stock exhaust but more bang for the buck would be simply removing the cat in favor of a euro premuffler. Will almost make as much power as SSI's will, but much cheaper to do and easier to swap over every 2 years.

Extrude Honing the intake plenums is expensive for what you gain(relatively speaking), but it might be worth doing at this time since the top end will be apart anyway.

No need to twin-plug unless you increase the piston/cylinder bore diameter or are increasing the compression. Since neither appears to be the case here, save the money.

If the mechanic is just doing the top end (i.e. heads), he probably won't remove the cylinders, but if so then do upgrade the rod bolts to ARP units. Those can be changed without splitting the case as someone else mentioned.

Is Ollie's going to be doing the machine work?

Ralph

964 cams are certainly worth it and will pass smog, no problem, even the tread mill stuff. John Dougherty can regrind your cams or do an exchange. His handle on PP is "camgrinder" and here is his website: http://www.drcamshafts.com/ Of course, new cams will mean regrinding or replacing your rocker arms, so you are out about an extra $500 in parts / machine work.

If it were my engine, I'd leave the bottom end alone. To get there, the pistons and cylinders need to come out. What if those turn out to be "questionable"? Things like this can easily sprial out of control. ;)

But in your case, with a mechanic having to go in there, it may be better to tend to the rod bolts now, so you won't have to pay labor twice?

I feel that the quoted 3k is a decent deal for a top end. I have seen much higher numbers locally. Make sure you get top notch machine work with new guides, valves where needed and a valve job. Also consider the stiffer valve springs and light retainers for the next money shift...

Good Luck!

George

PS: Consider shifer upgrades / trans help, while it is all out, in case your mis-shifted due to worn out transmission or shifter!

I recommend John as well (camgrinder)


Jeff

Buy my book and do it yourself for about $1500 in parts and machine work...

http://www.101projects.com

-Wayne

Yeah, aren't you rather involved with other marques? If you have worked on other engines, you will have enough skill to do a flat six, considering the book and the info you can get here.

George

I'm simply sorry to hear about your troubles, BRJ. I was looking forward to seeing you at Willow again. BTW, all the advice given here is very good. I'd do the same thing if I was in your position.

If you can, look at it as a good problem.

The 964 cams will pass the California dyno test. I have heard of 3 cars with them that passed.

Jeff and George, thanks for the recommending me.

Thank's for all the kind words, they sure do help.

As for doing it my self, I don't think so! Not ready for that yet, I could only imagine all the chances for me to make soemthing worst.

However I will be taking some advise from here as to what upgrades to do that will still keep me smog legal.

Thank you guys! SmileWavy

She will be back, better then ever.

You might be surprised, once you read the book...

-Wayne

Were up and over $5,000 due to the fact that 1st 2nd and 3rd gear need to be redone too.

:(

Wayne - that trans book is OVERDUE! :D

George (whose trans is more tender than the engine)

Update: Tranny - New dog teath and sincro for each gear, my current 5th gear has 38 teath and is WAY tall (once looking at the chart) so a new more stock 5th will be put in it's place, new clutch and flywheel kit inlcuded, so far my wrench is saying $2800 for the tranny work and parts. I gave him a $2,000 deposit today. (OUCH)

Engine: The valves are slightly visibly kinked, the piston tops however are evidently marked and look scuffed, other then that pistons and cylinders look ok as well as the heads, cylinder bolts and the cam shafts. This was the original $3,000 quote top end only.

Now if I want rod bolts replaced, cylinder bolts replcaced and stronger valve springs and a bit shaved off the heads (to give it a bit more compression, he said I would be looking at $5200

So now I am looking at a total of about $8,000

I am speachless (and broke). Any ideas, comments, tips or questions (dontations) ?

A shot of Jamesons, perhaps. I'll buy... :(

:D

Ouch ouch ouch, ok ok, stop twisting my arm.

Condolences!

While the 3k for the basic top end sound good, as I had mentioned before, I wonder, where is the extra 2200 coming from? That's for rod bolts, lower studs, shaving heads and stiffer springs? How much is that in parts? $800? $1k tops? Maybe you can supply the parts to the wrench and avoid his markup?

In my eyes, a few tenths in compression ratio won't make any noticeable difference in performance. The money will be better spent on upping cam grinds. And aren't the heads cleaned up anyway, so why pay extra for taking a bit material off, instead of just cleaning up the surface?

I have not much else to say. Just bite the bullet and get it over with. Short of selling your car in pieces and buying a nice SC instead ;), there isn't anything you can do.

It's too late now, but next time, leave your wrench out of it. Our gen. Porsches are just fine with a hobbyist and it will save you about 50%-80% on any job!

Take care,

George

Are you serious George? Is it realy that easy to rebuild a 3.2 motor? I keep thinking I could do it, but then what if?

I don't understand the situation with your 5th gear. The tallest 5th Porsche ever made was the 29/21 5th gear in the 1974 911 and 1976 912E transmissions.

What 5th gear is in your car? And what's your shop doing with it once they remove it? -- it's a valuable gear. Don't let them keep it!

bigrubber,
Obviously the $8K is too much scratch to stomach right now, right? You ask "...what if?". In my mind, the "what if" is your only option if you want to save a ton of cash. My old H-D mechanic used to have a sign on the wall that read "motorcycle service: fast, right, cheap...pick any two" Cheap and right usually means doing it yourself, and taking your time. Don't create a situation for yourself that cannot be overcome...it's a car, either way it'll sit until a descision is made, cash is rounded up, or you waiting for parts to come in from the machine shop. At any rate its better than "I can't do it and I can't afford to have it done..."

It's not like you live in the middle of nowhere...hell, most of the great Porsche places are in your back yard! You can do this...

R/
Dustin

If it wasn't painful we would'nt appreciate our toys so much!!

I don't know, for this time it may be too late, but seriously, what would you have to loose? Worst case scenario? If you really mess up and it blows up in a plume of smoke, you can still sell the core and then just go get another 3.2. Cost would be similar to what you pay now. ;)

I would not recommend that you start out with top end work as your first project, if you never worked on your car. However, if you work your way up the wrenching ladder slowly, it should be no problem at all. I have convinced more than one of my buddies to do more on their 911 themselves. So far none of them was too "stupid" to do a good job. With Waynes book and this board and enough patience, you can do anything. I was under the impression from earlier threads, that you work on the 911 and more so on other vehicles? If you have touched any engine, converting to the 3.2 would only be a matter of carefully reading the manual.

George

Bigrubber, maybe you could make a long term project out of the deal so there is no pressure to get it done quickly. I'm sure that there are local pelicans that can help you out along the way.

You might be able to find a cheap semi worn out 3.2 to put in your car while you slowly rebuild your own motor. The reason I say this is that the price on your rebuild is going up by the minute. Mine was the same and it got more expensive once the motor was completely dissasembled. Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide. Chuck

EXACLY!!!! My 5tyh gear is off the chart. Anyhow I am keeping it.

To the rest of you, I am comitted to having my wrench do my tranny, however he wont start on the motor till about wednesday of next week.

So I got a few days to decide.......I would need a stand for the motor, I got a large set of metric and standard tools, wrenches and sockets among other tools.

Do any of you have a list of "special tools" needed? Maybe a rough price range for these tools.

GHL makes the only C.A.R.B. [California Air Resources Board] legal
header system and it looks quite nice. The 'kit' comes with headers,
2 cats, cat pipes and muffler. It is all stainless, too.
drums
'89 3.2 [soon to be 3.4]

Get Wayne's book. It has all the tools in there and an example what machinework and parts will run. Wayne also tells you what tools you can improvise or make your own. The engine yoke and the cam holder tool are about the only things that cost a chunk of change. All the other tools are cheap or easily improviesed for.

George

edit:

Ok, from the top of my head, may not be complete or correct on price, but that's all I could think of. Roughly $500. You may have some of these (torque wrench? engine stand?) already. Also, try to borrow the more expensive tools!

Engine yoke: $200
Engine stand (cheap generic): $50
Cam holding tool: $75
P204 tensioner holding tool: $25
Z bar for dial indicator: $30
Metric dial indicator (ebay): $30
Valve adjust feeler gauge tool w/ stock: $20
Straight edge (align cam sprockets with intermediate shaft sprockets) : $30 at your local tool store.
Long 8mm allen head tool: $20
Torque wrench: $80
caliper: $20 on ebay. Mitutoyo is nice.

Hum......I'm on the fence!

It boils down to the question if you rather spend money or time.

George

LOL - I'm limited on both, but I am thinking of the pride and braging rights when I can say I built my "PORSCHE" motor

I think you're mechanic is very expensive, and is probably charging you too much, based upon what you said here.

$2500 is a pretty good estimate of the charge to rebuild an engine. Add about $250 more to R&R the engine/trans, and add a few more dollars if they are doing anything else while in there (like replacing the sound pad).

-Wayne

BRJ, if you decide to do it yourself I can help. I've BTDT and have some of the custom tools necessary (but my cam tools are the earlier style).
Onliest problem is, I'm very limited on time so I couldn't get over there very often or burn too many hours. My wife and family don't like the concept of "spare time" ;)

Wayne:

What's that in hours? 25?

Shops around here seem to charge a weeks labor. 40h for a full rebuild. That's what Anderson quotes too, IIRC. So, in the Bay Area, you are looking at 4k labor!

George

Two shops [Stockton, Modesto, Ca.] gave me a price of $8,000 and
$6,000 respectively, for a top end rebuild. Don't forget boys, California
loves to wring the max tax out of each of us with business paying the
lions' share. Of course, we pay the tax for the businesses by paying
higher prices for goods and services.
drums

BRJ: Since prices in CA are expensive, how about pulling the engine yourself, crating it and shipping it out of state? That's about $250.

Two places I can think of to send the engine, but still leave it on the West Coast are John Walker's Workshop (WA.) and Uncle Zak (ORE). Either one should do a very nice job and add power to boot.