Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > 911 Engine Rebuilding Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gilroy, California
Posts: 3,088
Garage
Red face You and Me have no luck, I too found major engine failure

Your post have a very familiar ring, I too found a major..major..major failure in my case. It's my first total rebuild and my first Porsche project as well. I LOVE IT! Look at my picture, it looks like my intermediate shaft pulverized, I found an extra distributor gear floating around near my timing chains.

Regards,

Alex
__________________
Its easier asking dumb questions than fixing dumb mistakes
1974 Porsche 911 Coupe, RSR Project
1976 Porsche 911 Targa, Black
1986 Porsche 911 Carrera, Black
2006 Porsche Cayenne S, Black
Old 01-18-2005, 09:03 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
Registered User
 
OldTee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Centreville, MARYLAND
Posts: 939
piston skirt.
__________________
Old Tee
all 911s sold
Old 01-19-2005, 05:03 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #22 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 335
Garage
I finally got the engine torn down, well at least down to the case, and Chris Streit (a.k.a. cstreit) is a winner! It was his first guess, without asking further questions, plus he answered definitively and with authority. Congratulations - I owe you $20 (will contact you via PM for your PayPal account address).

Below is a picture of opposing cylinders 3 and 6 - 6 has the chunk missing and the base of 3 is cracked. I noticed cylinder 1 has some of the surface missing so it needs replacing as well.


The next mystery is what other damage did those chunks do? Peering into the oil return tubes and I can see the vanes of the oil pump (see picture).


Thus, I need 3 pistons\cylinders and an oil pump at a minimum (besides the usual rebuild parts). Hmmm, maybe its time to upgrade to 3.8 liters!? Any suggestions? Does anyone have any parts lying around??
Old 01-30-2005, 10:27 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #23 (permalink)
Gon fix it with me hammer
 
svandamme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In Flanders Fields where the poppies blow
Posts: 18,638
Garage
ehm.... you sure the pieces you posted are the cyllinder?
do they fit in there?

maybe there's other damage inside your case
__________________
Stijn Vandamme
EX911STARGA73EX92477EX94484EX944S88NOW987C2007
Old 01-31-2005, 01:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #24 (permalink)
Forced Induction Junkie
 
WERK I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,291
Garage
Don,
I fear the worst. I would suggest splitting the case and taking it in for a complete checking out. You mentioned earlier that the car had suffered from water damage. Judging from the photo you provided showing the lower portion of the case, it appears there is a large amount of rust deposited on the aluminum case. I think it is safe to assume that water had entered the case over time, creating the aggravating circumstances for mechanical failure.
__________________
Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P

Last edited by WERK I; 01-31-2005 at 05:52 AM..
Old 01-31-2005, 05:49 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #25 (permalink)
Super Moderator
 
cstreit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Naperville, IL USA
Posts: 13,092
Garage
Don.

I'm donating my $20 prize to charity.

Namely, the "Don Settergen Engine Memorial Rebuild Fund". It's a worthy cause and I know they can use the help right now.

I'll second those recommendations to open the case. There has to be a good reason those pieces are broken off. Looks like rod contact - - but why?
__________________
Chris
----------------------------------------------
2008 Yamaha R6
2001 GT3 Cup - "Pepin"
1999 Spec Miata
1996 993 RS Replica
1971 Norton 750 Commando
Alcon Brake Kits
Old 01-31-2005, 07:14 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #26 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 335
Garage
Oh yeah, the chunk I displayed earlier fits nicely one one side of the hole on cylinder 6. Hmm a little JB Weld - just kidding.

And, oh yeah, that case has got to be cracked. The only way you can see the vanes of the oil pump would be if its housing is cracked. Anyway, at this point I'd do it just to satisfy my curiosity and to further improve my confidence in this car.

And lastly, thanks Chris for the donation and Dave thanks for the use of your tools - both have already been used!
Old 01-31-2005, 07:25 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #27 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 335
Garage
eroded oil pump

Oh my god! I opened the case and found out what started all the damage - the water. Look at the pictures below and you can see a distinct water line below the crank (whew), but coving the oil pump. The oil pump eroded (its shocking that the pump still moved oil and had some pressure) and one of its alignment studs traveled around the engine meeting up between the crank and the bottom of cylinders 3 and 6. Also, water entered cylinder 1 eroding the lining a little bit (dropping the compression only about 15% compared to the other 5 cylinders). The case looks good by my eye, so it is off the machine shop that Kelly-Moss Racing uses (its in competent hands). She'll get all new bearings and seals and the whole works!

I found an oil pump, but I need some cylinders. Mine are the newer style with the gasket groove at the head surface and are stamped 95ZN6. Does anyone have any lying around or know where I can get some new or good used? Does anyone know what other cylinder revision numbers are compatible (I found some 100ZN8s on eBay)?

Thanks as always!

Old 02-02-2005, 08:47 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #28 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: So. Calif.
Posts: 18,302
"Okay, I was going to tear this engine down as it was in a flood and my confidence was low, however, this stock 3.6l in my '92 C2 Cabriolet ran perfectly (except for a stuck thermostat to the front oil cooler that was quickly caught before temps rose to high). Anyway, upon start up after an oil change......"

Let me guess. You drained the oil tank, but there's no drain plug on engine?

What happened between, "ran perfectly" and "upon start up after an oil change..."?

Inquiring mind wants to know,

Sherwood
Old 02-02-2005, 10:02 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #29 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 335
Garage
I took the car to some pros to check out the oil system as the pressure wasn't steady and I wasn't sure after reading all the posts what it should be. The mechanic drove the car 7 miles and noticed it getting too hot and diagnosed the oil thermostat problem. Oddly they did not notice the pressure instability caused by this oil pump problem.

As for the oil changes, I pulled all three plugs (filter, tank and case) when I changed the oil about 3 or 4 times before the oil came out clean. I assume the mechanic did the same.

Even after the casastophic noise, I was able to turn the engine over by hand without a noise. Then I cranked her with the started and tested compression and she was still good. Then, I fired her up and she ran like before - smooth, but with instable oil pressure. With no confidence in the engine I tore it down to find the problem. YIKES!

The thermostat was stuck as diagnosed (I removed it, cleaned it and tested it), but a stellar mechanic missed this oil pump problem. No worries though as she was going to need to be torn down anyway. Just an extra 2 cylinders added to the cost of a confident rebuild...
Old 02-02-2005, 10:18 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #30 (permalink)
Forced Induction Junkie
 
WERK I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,291
Garage
Don,
To quote a somewhat infamous politician, "I feel your pain". In case you haven't thought of this, have the shop remove the oil gallery plugs and have the cases compltely flushed out.
Did this vehicle sit through a winter of freezing temps when the flooding occured? Freezing water in confined spaces, such as an oil pump, could explain the disintegration of the sump pump. When water goes into a crystalline(sp.?) state, the forces are extremely powerful, hence the use of freeze plugs in water cooled engines.
__________________
Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 02-02-2005, 10:18 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #31 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 335
Garage
No freezing occured as I bought the car in late fall from Maryland. Also, the engine was never run with any water in it as the car was stationary at the time of the flood. After the flood, the starter was shot so noone could have started it. The damage to the oil pump looks like errosion, possibly salt water??
Old 02-02-2005, 10:40 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #32 (permalink)
Registered User
 
350HP930's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: St Petersburg, FL
Posts: 3,814
The fact that it ran with the oil pump like that is amazing. I am suprised it mananged to scavange the sump though.

As far as that cylinder goes, there are people on this board that have paid to have their cylinders notched like that.
Old 02-05-2005, 10:01 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #34 (permalink)
Gon fix it with me hammer
 
svandamme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In Flanders Fields where the poppies blow
Posts: 18,638
Garage
Quote:
Originally posted by 350HP930
The fact that it ran with the oil pump like that is amazing. I am suprised it mananged to scavange the sump though.

As far as that cylinder goes, there are people on this board that have paid to have their cylinders notched like that.

i guess it could work , but i'de at least grind the edges , so no miniscule crack remain in the edge... that could grow under stress...
__________________
Stijn Vandamme
EX911STARGA73EX92477EX94484EX944S88NOW987C2007
Old 02-07-2005, 01:54 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #35 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 335
Garage
Here are pitcures of the oil pump from a couple more angles. I'mm going to clean it up and save it as the ultimate convesation piece. It is truly amazing that the engine ran smoothly. The only thing I found odd was the erratic oil pressure that peaked at only ~3-4 bar.
Old 02-07-2005, 09:54 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #36 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 335
Garage
The rebuild is fully underway. I started another post so you all can keep pushing (helping) me along! First time rebuilder gaining momentum!
Old 02-23-2005, 06:54 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #37 (permalink)
Super Moderator
 
cstreit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Naperville, IL USA
Posts: 13,092
Garage
what exactly is that stuff all over the pump? Welded on metal bits?
__________________
Chris
----------------------------------------------
2008 Yamaha R6
2001 GT3 Cup - "Pepin"
1999 Spec Miata
1996 993 RS Replica
1971 Norton 750 Commando
Alcon Brake Kits
Old 02-23-2005, 07:06 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #38 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 335
Garage
That's corroded material that is actually missing, not added. It seems like the material just rotted away. It's really weird because the case has some pitting (blasted clean) and one cylinder has pitting (replaced), but the pump abolutely rotted away. The pump must be made of a material the more easily reacts with water (possibly salt water). Maybe there is an electrical charge on the case that increased the reaction?
Old 02-23-2005, 07:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #39 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:05 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.