Anothe quesiton: V8 Conversion?
 

I thought my friend was pulling my leg when he mentioned a chevy small block conversion as an option for a '77 930 I'm considering (bad motor). Yea right, "Wouldn't the radiator on the roof ruin the lines of the car", I mused. Turns out, seems a number of people go this route. Realizing the purist would be deeply offended at such an action, and the value of the car, as a collector car, would deminish, what are you thoughts, experiences with a V8 conversion?? What started killing my desire for the '77 930 was the Porsche mechanic's statement that even in the day, the '77 930 was notoriously unreliable. Hell, if I wanted unreliable, I'd get a Ferrari.
Thanks,
DeMinimis

The 3.0 Turbo Carrera was no less reliable than any other Porsche. They did have a considerable amount of turbo lag but with what we know now that can be cured. I like the 3.0 turbo for it's looks, it's spartan controles and the fact that it was the first Porsche street car with a turbo.
Chevy V8 in a Porsche? If you want a Camaro buy a Camaro!!

Thanks for the advice. Anybody without a vested interest have an opinion?

I dont have a vested interest and would say the same thing Henry said. I love big block American muscle but i find these conversions offensive. If a 930 is driven regularly and maintained properly i cant imagine it being any less reliable than any other 30 year old car. I drove my 1970 911 to Daytona from NC last year and it didnt skip a beat.

Paul

Thanks Paul and Henry (edited version) for your replies. I'm not proposing either position, just trying to get enough info to make an informed decision whether to jump into this 930 or not. Its tough to think that I'm going to spend a chunk of money just to have the thing sit for a couple of years as I slowly rebuild it. The V8 idea was suggested to me as a reasonably cheap solution to having the car sit whilst I rebuild the 3.0. I've looked at a lot of pics and it appears, though I can't be certain, that some mods are made to the engine compartment for the conversion. If mods can't be undone, then I wouldn't even consider it, for I am a purist (well, I do upgrade just about everything I get my hands on). I haven't rebuilt a 350 since highschool (and yes, Henry, it was a camaro), but I remember it being easier than falling out of bed. The 3.0 would be my first attempt at rebuilding one of Ferdinand's children (my convertible bug (type 1) runs perfectly and it is still stock, so, fortunately, haven't had the opprotunity to rebuild that.) With my BMW motorcycles I've had over the years, all I've ever done has been basically plug-n-play. So, you see, I haven't tackled a German motor yet. Jumping into the 930 motor is a daunting task for a German-motor-virgin. Then there's the cost of these motors...geeszch. With better than $100K in student loans still outstanding, its not like I have $6k-$10k just lying around. That will take some time to squirrel away, especially considering the three open mouths at home. Maybe I should just put one of Bernie Bergman's Type4 (914) motors w/911 cooling in my bug, add some fake fuchs and cross-drilled brakes and call it good.
DeMinimis

I could see doing a V8 conversion if it makes you happy but I wonder if it really ends up being a "reasonably cheap solution".

You might consider talking to some people that have done the conversion and ask them how much they ended up spending.

I don't think early Turbos have much collector value but I don't keep up with such things but you're right, the money spent on the V8 would make the car worth less.

Nobody believes this until they prove it for themselves, but one of the most expensive ways to get into Porsche ownership is to buy a cheap "fixer upper".

-Chris

I built up a V8 914 several years ago.
The car was reliable and easy to drive and went like stink when I mashed the loud pedal. It also handled very well. in faxt it did everything well.
but I didn't like the car.

I've had 4 Porsches and managed to fall in love with everyone of them except the v8 car. I couldn't wait to sell it.
It just didn't have the charm of the others.

If you need an engine and can't afford a good turbo motor, just buy a 3.0 or 3.2 liter and stick in there.
You will be changing your turbo to a turbo look, but won't have to hack up the car and mess with the resale value too much.
If you pump alot on money into a V8 conversion you will be lucky to get 25% of it back when you sell.

First of all you have a good trans that is short so there are no mods there or in your engine bay .

Second dollar per dollar you cannot beat the conversion to a v8.

Really.......Who the hell is dreaming of a 75-77 930 anyway and wants to keep it totally stock......woop dee doo!!!!!!

that said.....these conversions (done right) are not cheap and you will have problems to sort out like when you get greedy and want more than 450hp and 400ft/lbs torque you will run in to cooling issues.

the big problem with these is ythe owner gets talked into doing these and they (conversion companies) say that you can do it inexpensively. then the owner runs out of money and the systems are not right yet. then it is sold at a loss. big loss!!!!!

Everyone sees the failed v8 conversion on ebay and says they suck and a whole host of other names.

Do what you want but know what you are getting into and you will be happier.

From someone that has been there... don't start it unless you have some play money and really want to do it or you will fail.

The last time I checked into a V8 conversion I was:

1) Maligned considerably by traditionalists on this board (who cares)

2) Understood a 3.6 conversion to cost relatively the same price, which includes the engine (which I do care about).

3) I went with a simple 3.0 - which, though provided by Henry - has more than proven itself for the last three years.

V8s are nice, but providing the engineering of a 911, I don't think it's as much sacrilegious as it is in an engineering sense, incorrect. You'll have to modify a lot more to substantiate the engine for the car - bigger torsion bars, cutting up the front of the tub for the radiator, possibly transmission reinforcement - complications come to mind...

I would love one of the early 3.0 turbos, much more than a later 3.3. And it would be stock!
I think there would/will be collector value in them.

I read on one V-8 conversion website that the chevy LS1 total install weighs LESS than the P-engine?? Something to the tune of 75LBs?? Man that can't be right...

If the car in question has the correct engine, you might find that it can be repaired for less than a V8 conversion.
As for the desirability of a 3.0 turbo, a nice one is worth $10 or $15K more than even the nicest V8 conversion.
The other option of putting a normally aspirated engine in this chassis as a driver it would make a very nice car.
Let's do the math.
Fix the turbo $10K maybe for engine repair ??
3.0 turbo with rebuilt engine = $18K to $25K
V8 conversion $5k to $10K
3.0 turbo with V8 conversion $10 to $12K ??
Who knows but it seems like a no brainer.

BTW: If you choose to change the engine I am a player for the 3.0 turbo engine.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1106758500.jpg

Oh, I'd keep the 3.0 regardless. Still haven't decided. I know what I'm not going to do and that is pay what they offered the car to me at. I've got some work to do on that end first. I can't imagine I'd do a V8 conversion for many reasons. First, I just hate American motors (don't even get me started on Harleys...), second, I'm somethign of a purist, and third I suspect most of the "notoriously unreliable" problems stem for the turbo and, perhaps, the FI. Would probably change the turbo out for a better aftermarket one after tons of research. First off, I've got to decide to get this damn thing or not. Thinking about offering my services in that sandy ***** hole accross the pond for a year or so, so may not matter that its just sitting in my driveway.

Wade

putting a Chevy v-8 in a 930 is like adding Everclear to wine to make it better, Stonger maybe, better? You will not have a 930 turbo or a Chevy or a balenced car for any thing ( road, 1/4mile etc)

Is the engine blown or does it just need to be refreshed/repaired?

I suggest buying wayne's book, searching this board and checking out the link in my sig.

If you DIY you could build an insane 930 with the turbo engine it was intended to have for $10K or just freshen up and overhaul what you got for around $5K if its not all blown to hell.

Thanks to all for your input. Started some good discussion regardless. Think I'm going to pass on the car. Need to finish my Super Vert project first and the price is too high for the 930 given the cost of getting it up and running again.
DeMinimis

You can put a Chevy V8 in a Porsche for a few bucks, but you now have a Chevy. If you want that so called Chevy winning power, well now you need a Chevy Bo Tie block plus all Bo tie parts. Whats that mean? that means Porsche prices for what are still classified as Chevy parts that no REAL chevy has it it. IF you do a Chevy engine with Bo tie parts you are looking at a $25K up engine, and its STILL a chevy. Nice for the NASCAR adds but still not a Porsche. For example the current price of a stripped down basic bow tie block is almost $4K. Plus everything else.

And yes Chevy BO TIE engines can kick Porsche butt, buttt they arn't real chevys are they. They are like an F16 Figher aircraft, NOTHING can beat them, but they aren't anybodys daily driver.

Good point Jack ! I always get this whine on how expensive Porsche parts are. Do the some thing to a Chevy (Ford, Dodge, Datson,etc.) That comes on a stock 911 ,dry sump, webbers, sodium filled valves, bearing girdles etc. to make relaible usable power and you will spend BIG bucks. That is why Penske went with the 911 for IROC becouse it was one of the cheapist way to go fast. Penske knew how to make cars win and the $$$$ it takes. Fritz

And consider if you would ever be able to sell such a converted Porsche.

I know, everyone says that they will never sell it, they put their blood, sweat, and tears into it. Just ask any "old-timer" if they ever use the words "never"!!!!

And what do you think is the market for such a conversion? I would submit it is nil, zero, nada, zip. Who would want your conversion? A 17 year old, who couldn't afford what you were asking for your "personal" car?

Now, my SC is not quite "stock", but it looks stock, and it has all the right parts, and sounds like an SC, and all the conversions I've made to make it faster on the track can be "undone" and we're right back to the same old car that we grew to love.

Just ask yourself, would YOU buy such a car if you didn't know how and to what quality level such a conversion were done by someone else?

I think I have to agree with Henry (whom I've never met) to leave a Porsche a Porsche, and a V-8 a V-8. If you like V-8s, buy a Cayenne.

But then it's your money!!!!!

Sorry, I've read this thread a couple times and have to comment:

When a 120K mile tired '84 207 horsepower 3.2L is selling for $4000+

And you can buy a complete '03 Corvette 350 horsepower LS1 for $3000....Link for a 9K mile LS1 for $3000

The LS1 weighs about 385 pounds dressed, very similar to a 3.2L in similar dress, and much less than a 3.3 Turbo (about 500lbs). The LS1/LS6/LS2 has an all-aluminum cross-bolted 6-bolt-main ‘girdled’ block. The LS6 heads (Corvette ZO6) come from GM with sodium-filled exhaust valves and hollow-stem intake valves (and they’re available brand-new from your local GM dealer for about $750 a pair, assembled)

For anyone who is interested, you can build (with BRAND NEW PARTS) a 6.6L (402 cu in - 4.00" std bore and 4.00" stroker crank) all-aluminum LS2-based V8 that will make between 520 and 600 horsepower and 520-550 lb-ft for under $10000 including fuel injection (used computer).

Scoggin-Dickey sells the 'short-block' (forged crank/rods/pistons), assembled and balanced for $4000, new
Custom camshafts run about $500 (and some MUCH less)
The composite LS2 intake runs $250, brand new from GM
CNC 90mm Throttle bodies are $500 or less, new
Fuel injectors are $50 each, new

Here is a link to the dyno chart on a 580hp iron blocked 6.6L

Could you build a twin-plug 3.7L for the same money? Would it make within 100 hp or 100 lb-ft? It would weigh about the same.

As for the conversion components and their expense:

Doesn't a good oil cooler and Elephant oil cooler lines cost a couple grand?

The radiator conversion costs about that

About the 'return on investment':

Think about the guys who spend $25000 on a 500hp Turbo upgrade/rebuild....how much of that do you get back? How about a twin-plug 3.7L?

If you had a tired '84 Carrera 3.2L you could exchange your engine for a rebuilt through Motor Meisters for $4000, and still be at 207-250hp.

OR,

Sell your tired motor for $4000
Buy a NEW 400hp LS2 crate motor from any GM dealer for $5900
Buy a conversion kit from Renegade $1500
Do the radiator kit $1500-2000
Sell your oil cooler w/ fan, oil lines, oil tank $800
Leave $2000 in the 'misc' category

So it nets out that a NEW 400hp, 400lb-ft Chev motor is about a $2000 upgrade from a rebuilt 207hp 3.2L Porsche motor

I'm not sure you could do a 3.6L conversion for twice that $$

I realize that there are oversimplifications BOTH ways here.....but the point can be made for affordable American V8 power, and the technology of today's V8's compare favorably to the tech of our '70-80's 911's.

I've had the opportunity to put a new 2005 997 and a new 2005 Corvette through the paces on a race track, and I'm impressed with both. The Corvette's motor is incredible. The 997 is razor sharp. Best of both worlds?
I'll put on my nomex (flame retardant) suit SmileWavy

E

My 500+HP upgrade/rebuild is costing me less than $9K, but thats because I'm a cheap DIY bastard. :D

I think if you went to Andial or Powerhaus, et al, you'd be in a little deeper ;)

E

Kaisen brought up good points, maybe I am living to much in the past. I played with BBC's in early 80's (pro stock) then I put togeather a Mclearen F-5000 car in 1985 for a freind with a SBC. We had to buy a set of Webber's for the SBC and they were $5000.00 a set of Webber's for a 911 at the time were under $2000.00. We converted the Mclearen from a M10A to a m10B which was mainly dry sumping to lower the CG (and it also kept oil pressure around the whole track) The Tilton dry sump pump was $800.00 (Chevy did not make one for there engines at the time) 911 dry sump pump was $350.00, also the oil tank, lines cooler etc that comes factory on a 911 is big buck after market parts for a chevy at that time. The owner paid $5000.00 for a buildable core engine from Traco in 1975. In the 80's you had to pay a machine shop big bucks to make a sbc live at high HP out puts. Those SBC siamese exhoust ports cracked iron heads and warped alloy ones under stress. valve float with push rod engines make the tenshener problom 911 have seem rather tame. It is tough to compare apples to apples here and some people just do not care about alot of the advantages porsche gives its customers some people only need high HP #s . That is fine, I guess I am not one of them :rolleyes:

My 2001 LS1 (stock-shortblock 5.7L 346 cu in) 6 speed put down 373rwhp and in 60K miles I had no failures, no drops of oil on the garage floor, no valve adjustments, no plugs, rotors, or caps replaced. The A/C froze me out and never failed to work, and I got 25mpg at 74mph on cruise. Oh, and I have timeslips for 11.97 @ 122mph on street tires, and it lapped Brainerd International Raceway at 2:02, about as fast as 360 Modenas, Vipers, and 996TT's. That's in a 3400 lb car.

Just think of it in a 2400 lb car. Best of both worlds!

E

If you race a chevy motor like a Porsche motor can be raced, I mean all out racing on a road racing track it will break if it dosen't have all $25K worth of stuff in it. Otherwise why do ALL the nascar guys use this expensive stuff? All the VARA race cars (the ones that don't break) use all the expensive stuff and the ones that don't are swearing that they will next time as they are picking up the pieces. This includes all the Ford guys too. The corvett stuff works good for a few runs on the drag strip or a couple of laps but then it starts to break and when it does, ka boom. Sorry of you are one of those who dosen't beleive this but just start to track the car a lot, serious track time like a vintaqe race and you will soon see what I mean.

Interesting observation, Snowman. I don't agree.

Racing in a competitive series, especially at the professional level, is all about cubic dollars. That competitive edge, however small, is worth the money. Race motors, by definition, are at the bleeding edge; the balances between power and longevity and weight and rules. That 'nth' costs a lot more than the one that came before it. It is an exponential equation. How fast do you want to go?

You used NASCAR. Series rules are stringent. Every hunderedth of a second over a 600 mile race can mean the difference between 1st and 23rd. Those engines are esoteric, not at all the 'stock-cars' that GM and Ford would like you to believe. Those motors live at 8500-9500 rpm, under load, pumping 800 horsepower, FOR 500-600 MILES a race. NASCAR Nextel Cup rules dictate that the rod/wristpin/piston combo can weigh no less than 1000 grams. I'm sure there are guys here that can do the math on piston speed and the G's they encounter. Of course they cost a lot of dough.

Try revving a stock 3.6L to 9000 rpm. Or a stock Corvette to 9000rpm. Both will leave expensive pieces.

But both will live 150K miles if kept under 6500rpm.

So making parts from 'unobtanium' may make the racing world go round, but if you're willing to back off a few 'nth's you can save a lot of dough and still be reliable, even on the track. It's about speed, not longevity....back off power 10% and it will live for a LONG time....over-rev it 10% and it will be shrapnel fast.

A low stressed 6.6L making 500hp will last longer than a high-stressed 3.6L making 500hp. Unless the 3.6L has high-tech, expensive parts (like the 6.6L would require at 800hp). Ain't no substitute for cubic inches, except cubic dollars.

Also, mass production brings an economy of scale compared to the racing world. GM will build 1.3 million 'LS' series engines (4.8L to 6.0L) this year and stick them in everything from Silverado to Grand Prix. Almost all parts are interchangable. Investment costs go down. That's how pretty 'trick' assembled LS6 heads retail for $750 a pair.

Another HUGE factor: Technology is getting cheaper. Today's mass produced engine management systems are more capable than any exotic F1 system from 1985. Fuel injection, coil-on-plug digital ignition, and all the advanced sensors allow a 2005 motor to make more power, burn less fuel, make less emissions, and last longer.

That technology is MUCH cheaper now, thanks to mass production. A 1985 Carerra is very low tech that way, but still expensive to replace or upgrade the sensors/electronics.

Even mundane things like engine blocks are better because of computers. Metallurgy, stress analysis, and CAD/CAM systems are making it easier and cheaper to make better parts. So even pedestrian GM cars and trucks benefit.

Again, the idea of 500 reliable horsepower in a 2400 pound Porsche appeals to me. The best of both worlds.

E

To me it won't be a Porsche without an aircooled flat six....
Put the chevy in a light kitcar, that would be fun!

if the Porsche engine is not the best choice why is the car?

Let me try to summerize, If you want to go fast in the lower classes , Chevy etc. is going to be cheaper than a Porsche etc. If you want a car with high performance features to run in the big events it is cheaper to go Porsche since the cars came from the factory (economy of production) with the go fast bits already. The old " Making a silk purse out of a sow ear' does seem to be true. I have to concead the porsche is more $$ compared to street Chevys becouse there is not a non- "race" option like the Chevy and in that street state size matters.

Quick response:

Yes, but Ultima GTR kits are VERY expensive. "Good" kit cars are. Why not start with a good 'depreciated' chassis like a 911/930 roller?

Because it handles great, is recognizable (it has aged well), has tremendous aftermarket support for lots of go-fast goodies, and I can't think of a worthy GM car that you can get to weigh 1900-2400 lbs.

So you don't like the Boxster, 996/997, 928, 944/968, Cayenne, 917's, or Porsche/TAG Indy cars? You're right, a V8 911 is no longer a true Porsche, but why is that the point?

Didn't the Corvette C5R win LeMans a time or two? What are go-fast bits, exactly? What modern (2000-2005) production 911 has a go-fast bit that a similar vintage Corvette doesn't? If you can think of one (maybe dry sump lube), I'll bet it can be added to the Vette (although it isn't as necessary as you think) and still be cheaper than the 911. And since we're talking specifically and exclusively about ENGINES, it is so very much less true. Again, you can build a race-worthy LS1/LS2/LS6 V8 with all the go-fast bits for less than a similar 3.2/3.6/3.8. And if it only needs to rev 6500 rpm, it can be done for WAY less.

A 282hp 3.6L Varioram, USED, is still going for $10000+. For $10000, you could build a 6500rpm 282hp Chev V8 that would be indescructable in any form of racing. You could take that used 9K mile LS1 for $3000 and DE-TUNE 70 horsepower out, by lowering the compression ratio and destroking it (the 4.8L crank would do it) then lowering the computer's rev limiter to, say, 5500rpm. Then add all the 'trick' racing internals and valvetrain to handle 8000 rpm so if you missed a shift there wouldstill be a margin for error. Heck, you could even add dry sump lube to make you warm and fuzzy. It could run upside down when you rolled it. All for under $10000.

Let's have an open mind to ingenuity and evolution. Or do you like replacing points, adjusting valve lash, and rejetting carbs?

E

Ok, I shouldn't be so narrow minded. An air cooled flat 4-12 is acceptable ;)

Also I should have written: "To me it won't be a Porsche 911 without an aircooled flat six".

I have a fetish for aircraft engines and dry sumps so the porsche flat six really appeals to me.

If you put a turbo and some loud exhaust on one they sound pretty badass too..

These guys with their under $25K chevy go fast stuff are just kidding themselves. Why do you thing Chevy makes Bow tie parts, you know the ones that cost about the same as Porsche parts do.

Chevrolet makes Bow-Tie parts to adhere to racing rules, and update design and manufacturing for a series of motors that is up to 50 years old. Chevrolet doesn't make Bow Tie parts for the LS series motors (or the LT1/LT4 that preceded), just the 'old' small block platforms from 1956-1992.

Bow Tie parts are race specific. An example: some Bow Tie head castings are NASCAR legal and are 12 degree combustion chambers. To have the valves sit at that angle calls for a radical redo of the entire valvetrain geometry in an 'old' smallblock. That means it is really ONLY for that application. They can't make very many of them because of that, so they are more expensive.

But NOT as expensive as you must think, snowman.

The newest racing BOW TIE small-block (Part # 10051181) is only $1391 retail. The CNC NASCAR block machined for AN fittings and 2.64" crank is only $5250 (only diff is CNC machining).

You can't fit a big block in a Porsche, but the ZZ572 crate motor (572 cu in) comes COMPLETE with carb, intake, distibutor, water pump, oil pan, etc for $13895. That motor produces 720 horsepower and 685 lb-ft right out of the box.

The Corvette C5R aluminum block (not considered a 'Bow-Tie' part) is only $6191....this is the EXACT same Katech block that won LeMans. That block was only necessary to get 427 cu in due to its 'siamesed' press-fit liners which allowed a 4.125" bore in a 4.600" bore center (vs the sub-$1000 LS2 block has a 4.00" bore). C5R heads (PN:12480005) run only $1700/pr.

The C5R is exactly what I'm talking about. The 'nth'.

If you MUST have 427 cu in, you used to have to buy a $6191 C5R block (which is still cheaper than a new stock 911/930 case and a new set of cylinder barrels). But if you can live with 404 cu in, you can do it with an inexpensive production LS2 block. Heck you can get 427 with a stock 4.00" LS2 block and a $2000 4.125" stroker crank. Or there are companies (Darton) that will re-sleeve the LS2 block to 4.125" bore for about $2300.

It is racing rules that dictate a lot of parts combinations. That is what dictates their expense. There was a time when 2.8L RSR cylinders were 'unobtainium'. Now why not just start with a 3.2L production Carrera motor?

Snowman, I think your comments are uninformed. I heard that a Porsche Motorsports engine set-up for the '03-04 GT3 campaign ran in the $40,000 neighborhood.....I would defer to an expert to ask if that were true. I'm not just going to say: "If you race a Porsche motor like a Ferrari motor can be raced, I mean all out racing on a road racing track it will break if it doesn't have $40K worth of stuff in it. Otherwise why do ALL the GT3 guys use this expensive stuff? All those Porsche motors and their bad rod bolts and head studs and oil leaks. All these guys with their under-$40,000 Porsche stuff are just kidding themselves. Why do you think Porsche makes Motorsports parts, you know the ones that cost about the same as Ferrari parts do." :rolleyes:

350HP930: A friend of mine had a Mooney in the early eighties that had a factory Porsche flat-6 motor. Said Porsche right on the engine cowl. I flew with him from the Minneapolis area to Bayfield, WI (Apostle Islands of Lake Superior) to crew on his racing sailboat...that was probably 1986.

E

If a 911 with a V8 conversion is SOOOOO good, why are they always worth less then a 911 with a 911 engine in it? I just don't see people lining up to buy 911's with these V8 conversions in them no matter how many HP they put out.

:confused:

Hmm...as source of cheap torque/power, V8 is very efficient. However, there are other less obvious reasons why people buy this car. I believe some of them would be offended by pushrod V8 even if it's cheap to buy. While V8 is cheap to tune, doing a properly executed install in 911 isn't.

There are issues of extra weight (for iron-block ones), lost prestige (pushrod 50's tech in car known for technical excellence) and complicated install (hard to do watercooling right).

Please don't missunderstand me, me an Mattias are installing a non-Porsche engine in 911 ourselves, but it's more of a prank. Also, engine is light, quite hi-tech and it's a 4-banger.

LOL I used the exact same arguments in favor of the V8 in a Porsche, a few years ago before I actually built one.
Never again. I love my 911 with the Porsche engine, I did not love the Porsche I built with the V8 engine. I didn't even like it very much. I make excuses to drive my 911, i didn't do that with the V8 car. I would never, ever think about doing it again. It just didn't have the feel or the charm that makes Porsche a great car.

To get the real story, don't ask people who are thinking of building one, don't ask people who are building one now, ask people who used to own one, they will tell you what the car really is.

kaisen-- Keep dreaming.

When the time comes on my 635 I will put the LS7 small block (from the new Corvette due out this fall) and trans. The amount of $$ it will take to stuff a late 4.4 V-8 with all the mods or a M5 V-8 is too much. Current cost est for an LS7 engine w/electrincs is @$7500.00 I think that's a steal!

After you put that corvett engine in your BMW I challange you to 25 laps at Willow Springs Raceway, winner is just one who finishes all the laps, at best time you can do. THats with my stock 20 year old M635. Looser pays for the tow truck for the corvett engine.