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Anothe quesiton: V8 Conversion?

I thought my friend was pulling my leg when he mentioned a chevy small block conversion as an option for a '77 930 I'm considering (bad motor). Yea right, "Wouldn't the radiator on the roof ruin the lines of the car", I mused. Turns out, seems a number of people go this route. Realizing the purist would be deeply offended at such an action, and the value of the car, as a collector car, would deminish, what are you thoughts, experiences with a V8 conversion?? What started killing my desire for the '77 930 was the Porsche mechanic's statement that even in the day, the '77 930 was notoriously unreliable. Hell, if I wanted unreliable, I'd get a Ferrari.
Thanks,
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Old 01-25-2005, 03:25 PM
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The 3.0 Turbo Carrera was no less reliable than any other Porsche. They did have a considerable amount of turbo lag but with what we know now that can be cured. I like the 3.0 turbo for it's looks, it's spartan controles and the fact that it was the first Porsche street car with a turbo.
Chevy V8 in a Porsche? If you want a Camaro buy a Camaro!!
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Old 01-25-2005, 04:33 PM
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Thanks for the advice. Anybody without a vested interest have an opinion?
Old 01-25-2005, 04:39 PM
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I dont have a vested interest and would say the same thing Henry said. I love big block American muscle but i find these conversions offensive. If a 930 is driven regularly and maintained properly i cant imagine it being any less reliable than any other 30 year old car. I drove my 1970 911 to Daytona from NC last year and it didnt skip a beat.

Paul
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Old 01-25-2005, 05:28 PM
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Thanks Paul and Henry (edited version) for your replies. I'm not proposing either position, just trying to get enough info to make an informed decision whether to jump into this 930 or not. Its tough to think that I'm going to spend a chunk of money just to have the thing sit for a couple of years as I slowly rebuild it. The V8 idea was suggested to me as a reasonably cheap solution to having the car sit whilst I rebuild the 3.0. I've looked at a lot of pics and it appears, though I can't be certain, that some mods are made to the engine compartment for the conversion. If mods can't be undone, then I wouldn't even consider it, for I am a purist (well, I do upgrade just about everything I get my hands on). I haven't rebuilt a 350 since highschool (and yes, Henry, it was a camaro), but I remember it being easier than falling out of bed. The 3.0 would be my first attempt at rebuilding one of Ferdinand's children (my convertible bug (type 1) runs perfectly and it is still stock, so, fortunately, haven't had the opprotunity to rebuild that.) With my BMW motorcycles I've had over the years, all I've ever done has been basically plug-n-play. So, you see, I haven't tackled a German motor yet. Jumping into the 930 motor is a daunting task for a German-motor-virgin. Then there's the cost of these motors...geeszch. With better than $100K in student loans still outstanding, its not like I have $6k-$10k just lying around. That will take some time to squirrel away, especially considering the three open mouths at home. Maybe I should just put one of Bernie Bergman's Type4 (914) motors w/911 cooling in my bug, add some fake fuchs and cross-drilled brakes and call it good.
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Old 01-25-2005, 05:54 PM
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I could see doing a V8 conversion if it makes you happy but I wonder if it really ends up being a "reasonably cheap solution".

You might consider talking to some people that have done the conversion and ask them how much they ended up spending.

I don't think early Turbos have much collector value but I don't keep up with such things but you're right, the money spent on the V8 would make the car worth less.

Nobody believes this until they prove it for themselves, but one of the most expensive ways to get into Porsche ownership is to buy a cheap "fixer upper".

-Chris
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Old 01-25-2005, 07:19 PM
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I built up a V8 914 several years ago.
The car was reliable and easy to drive and went like stink when I mashed the loud pedal. It also handled very well. in faxt it did everything well.
but I didn't like the car.

I've had 4 Porsches and managed to fall in love with everyone of them except the v8 car. I couldn't wait to sell it.
It just didn't have the charm of the others.

If you need an engine and can't afford a good turbo motor, just buy a 3.0 or 3.2 liter and stick in there.
You will be changing your turbo to a turbo look, but won't have to hack up the car and mess with the resale value too much.
If you pump alot on money into a V8 conversion you will be lucky to get 25% of it back when you sell.
Old 01-25-2005, 08:10 PM
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First of all you have a good trans that is short so there are no mods there or in your engine bay .

Second dollar per dollar you cannot beat the conversion to a v8.

Really.......Who the hell is dreaming of a 75-77 930 anyway and wants to keep it totally stock......woop dee doo!!!!!!

that said.....these conversions (done right) are not cheap and you will have problems to sort out like when you get greedy and want more than 450hp and 400ft/lbs torque you will run in to cooling issues.

the big problem with these is ythe owner gets talked into doing these and they (conversion companies) say that you can do it inexpensively. then the owner runs out of money and the systems are not right yet. then it is sold at a loss. big loss!!!!!

Everyone sees the failed v8 conversion on ebay and says they suck and a whole host of other names.

Do what you want but know what you are getting into and you will be happier.

From someone that has been there... don't start it unless you have some play money and really want to do it or you will fail.
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Old 01-25-2005, 08:14 PM
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The last time I checked into a V8 conversion I was:

1) Maligned considerably by traditionalists on this board (who cares)

2) Understood a 3.6 conversion to cost relatively the same price, which includes the engine (which I do care about).

3) I went with a simple 3.0 - which, though provided by Henry - has more than proven itself for the last three years.

V8s are nice, but providing the engineering of a 911, I don't think it's as much sacrilegious as it is in an engineering sense, incorrect. You'll have to modify a lot more to substantiate the engine for the car - bigger torsion bars, cutting up the front of the tub for the radiator, possibly transmission reinforcement - complications come to mind...
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Old 01-25-2005, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by H20911
Really.......Who the hell is dreaming of a 75-77 930 anyway and wants to keep it totally stock......woop dee doo!!!!!!
I would love one of the early 3.0 turbos, much more than a later 3.3. And it would be stock!
I think there would/will be collector value in them.
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Old 01-26-2005, 01:55 AM
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I read on one V-8 conversion website that the chevy LS1 total install weighs LESS than the P-engine?? Something to the tune of 75LBs?? Man that can't be right...
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Old 01-26-2005, 06:25 AM
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If the car in question has the correct engine, you might find that it can be repaired for less than a V8 conversion.
As for the desirability of a 3.0 turbo, a nice one is worth $10 or $15K more than even the nicest V8 conversion.
The other option of putting a normally aspirated engine in this chassis as a driver it would make a very nice car.
Let's do the math.
Fix the turbo $10K maybe for engine repair ??
3.0 turbo with rebuilt engine = $18K to $25K
V8 conversion $5k to $10K
3.0 turbo with V8 conversion $10 to $12K ??
Who knows but it seems like a no brainer.

BTW: If you choose to change the engine I am a player for the 3.0 turbo engine.

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Old 01-26-2005, 08:25 AM
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Oh, I'd keep the 3.0 regardless. Still haven't decided. I know what I'm not going to do and that is pay what they offered the car to me at. I've got some work to do on that end first. I can't imagine I'd do a V8 conversion for many reasons. First, I just hate American motors (don't even get me started on Harleys...), second, I'm somethign of a purist, and third I suspect most of the "notoriously unreliable" problems stem for the turbo and, perhaps, the FI. Would probably change the turbo out for a better aftermarket one after tons of research. First off, I've got to decide to get this damn thing or not. Thinking about offering my services in that sandy ***** hole accross the pond for a year or so, so may not matter that its just sitting in my driveway.

Wade
Old 01-26-2005, 08:55 AM
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putting a Chevy v-8 in a 930 is like adding Everclear to wine to make it better, Stonger maybe, better? You will not have a 930 turbo or a Chevy or a balenced car for any thing ( road, 1/4mile etc)
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Old 01-26-2005, 07:09 PM
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Is the engine blown or does it just need to be refreshed/repaired?

I suggest buying wayne's book, searching this board and checking out the link in my sig.

If you DIY you could build an insane 930 with the turbo engine it was intended to have for $10K or just freshen up and overhaul what you got for around $5K if its not all blown to hell.
Old 01-26-2005, 08:17 PM
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Thanks to all for your input. Started some good discussion regardless. Think I'm going to pass on the car. Need to finish my Super Vert project first and the price is too high for the 930 given the cost of getting it up and running again.
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Old 01-27-2005, 12:59 PM
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You can put a Chevy V8 in a Porsche for a few bucks, but you now have a Chevy. If you want that so called Chevy winning power, well now you need a Chevy Bo Tie block plus all Bo tie parts. Whats that mean? that means Porsche prices for what are still classified as Chevy parts that no REAL chevy has it it. IF you do a Chevy engine with Bo tie parts you are looking at a $25K up engine, and its STILL a chevy. Nice for the NASCAR adds but still not a Porsche. For example the current price of a stripped down basic bow tie block is almost $4K. Plus everything else.

And yes Chevy BO TIE engines can kick Porsche butt, buttt they arn't real chevys are they. They are like an F16 Figher aircraft, NOTHING can beat them, but they aren't anybodys daily driver.

Last edited by snowman; 01-27-2005 at 09:45 PM..
Old 01-27-2005, 09:36 PM
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Good point Jack ! I always get this whine on how expensive Porsche parts are. Do the some thing to a Chevy (Ford, Dodge, Datson,etc.) That comes on a stock 911 ,dry sump, webbers, sodium filled valves, bearing girdles etc. to make relaible usable power and you will spend BIG bucks. That is why Penske went with the 911 for IROC becouse it was one of the cheapist way to go fast. Penske knew how to make cars win and the $$$$ it takes. Fritz
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Old 01-28-2005, 07:01 AM
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And consider if you would ever be able to sell such a converted Porsche.

I know, everyone says that they will never sell it, they put their blood, sweat, and tears into it. Just ask any "old-timer" if they ever use the words "never"!!!!

And what do you think is the market for such a conversion? I would submit it is nil, zero, nada, zip. Who would want your conversion? A 17 year old, who couldn't afford what you were asking for your "personal" car?

Now, my SC is not quite "stock", but it looks stock, and it has all the right parts, and sounds like an SC, and all the conversions I've made to make it faster on the track can be "undone" and we're right back to the same old car that we grew to love.

Just ask yourself, would YOU buy such a car if you didn't know how and to what quality level such a conversion were done by someone else?

I think I have to agree with Henry (whom I've never met) to leave a Porsche a Porsche, and a V-8 a V-8. If you like V-8s, buy a Cayenne.

But then it's your money!!!!!
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Old 01-28-2005, 09:00 AM
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Sorry, I've read this thread a couple times and have to comment:

Quote:
Do the some thing to a Chevy (Ford, Dodge, Datson,etc.) That comes on a stock 911 ,dry sump, webbers, sodium filled valves, bearing girdles etc. to make relaible usable power and you will spend BIG bucks.
When a 120K mile tired '84 207 horsepower 3.2L is selling for $4000+

And you can buy a complete '03 Corvette 350 horsepower LS1 for $3000....Link for a 9K mile LS1 for $3000

The LS1 weighs about 385 pounds dressed, very similar to a 3.2L in similar dress, and much less than a 3.3 Turbo (about 500lbs). The LS1/LS6/LS2 has an all-aluminum cross-bolted 6-bolt-main ‘girdled’ block. The LS6 heads (Corvette ZO6) come from GM with sodium-filled exhaust valves and hollow-stem intake valves (and they’re available brand-new from your local GM dealer for about $750 a pair, assembled)

For anyone who is interested, you can build (with BRAND NEW PARTS) a 6.6L (402 cu in - 4.00" std bore and 4.00" stroker crank) all-aluminum LS2-based V8 that will make between 520 and 600 horsepower and 520-550 lb-ft for under $10000 including fuel injection (used computer).

Scoggin-Dickey sells the 'short-block' (forged crank/rods/pistons), assembled and balanced for $4000, new
Custom camshafts run about $500 (and some MUCH less)
The composite LS2 intake runs $250, brand new from GM
CNC 90mm Throttle bodies are $500 or less, new
Fuel injectors are $50 each, new

Here is a link to the dyno chart on a 580hp iron blocked 6.6L

Could you build a twin-plug 3.7L for the same money? Would it make within 100 hp or 100 lb-ft? It would weigh about the same.

As for the conversion components and their expense:

Doesn't a good oil cooler and Elephant oil cooler lines cost a couple grand?

The radiator conversion costs about that

About the 'return on investment':

Think about the guys who spend $25000 on a 500hp Turbo upgrade/rebuild....how much of that do you get back? How about a twin-plug 3.7L?

If you had a tired '84 Carrera 3.2L you could exchange your engine for a rebuilt through Motor Meisters for $4000, and still be at 207-250hp.

OR,

Sell your tired motor for $4000
Buy a NEW 400hp LS2 crate motor from any GM dealer for $5900
Buy a conversion kit from Renegade $1500
Do the radiator kit $1500-2000
Sell your oil cooler w/ fan, oil lines, oil tank $800
Leave $2000 in the 'misc' category

So it nets out that a NEW 400hp, 400lb-ft Chev motor is about a $2000 upgrade from a rebuilt 207hp 3.2L Porsche motor

I'm not sure you could do a 3.6L conversion for twice that $$

I realize that there are oversimplifications BOTH ways here.....but the point can be made for affordable American V8 power, and the technology of today's V8's compare favorably to the tech of our '70-80's 911's.

I've had the opportunity to put a new 2005 997 and a new 2005 Corvette through the paces on a race track, and I'm impressed with both. The Corvette's motor is incredible. The 997 is razor sharp. Best of both worlds?
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Old 02-05-2005, 09:56 PM
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