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Break down of cylinder processes

I though some of the hardcore cylinder geeks might like this.
http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_boring_trutheverybodys_ideas/
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Old 02-08-2005, 09:48 AM
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Interesting.. they quote the nikasil process as only costing 5-$10 per bore. That means there's ALOT of machine work that goes into the nikies.
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Old 02-08-2005, 10:25 AM
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yeah i guess so, but it's interesting to note that porsches new flagship process is lokasil. i wonder how long it will take before we can have our barrels converted to lokasil?
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Old 02-08-2005, 01:04 PM
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You can't really Lokasil isn't a honing or plating method.

The lokasil bore (which is 75% air) is inserted into the case mold before the aluminum is injected under extreme pressure.

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Old 02-08-2005, 07:41 PM
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In '98, I was fortunate to work on the new model training program for the Mercedes ML320 SUV. From a meeting with the head powertrain engineer, he indicated the process they use to build their engine blocks (and cylinders) is the same as used by Porsche. As per the link cited by 1fastredsc, Porsche's "Locasil" tradename is the same process as used in MB's Silitec cylinders; both Kolbenschmidt processes.

From the new model training materials:

"Silicon Liner Technology" (Silitec) cylinder liners are manufactured separately, then joined as part of the engine during the engine casting process.

The cylinders are spaced on 106mm centers which allows engine capacities up to 5 liters
(ed. their modular engine concept).

The cylinders are an alloy of aluminum, silicon, copper and magnesium which provides an optimum material for use as a cylinder material. This material and manufacturing process offers several advantages over cast-iron liners. They include:

- Low weight (a savings of approx. 500 grams/cylinder)
- Better heat transfer
- Excellent dimensional stability
- Reduced friction
- Exceptional wear resistance
- Less noise and cylinder distortion
- Better HC emissions

During final engine machining, an acid solution exposes a thin layer of silicon crystals in the alloy. This provides an extremely hard yet low-friction wear surface. The manufacturing process that creates the cylinder liner is also more environmentally friendly."


FWIW, it sounds like the second generation of the "Alusil" cylinders.

This info might be good for something (???)

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Old 02-08-2005, 09:46 PM
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All the above leads to total throw away engines. No repairs, ever.
Old 02-09-2005, 07:24 PM
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Yes, that's true in the eyes of the manufacturer.

However, I suspect some enterprising company will think of some way to salvage an engine that's .001" over spec.

I realize this is obvious, but manufacturers are not in the business of making repairs easy or inexpensive, otherwise they'd make cars that were easy and inexpensive to repair.

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Old 02-09-2005, 07:30 PM
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$5-10 for nikasil is laughable, maybe that's what an OEM pays? There is a splatter coating resembling nikasil that is applied like the ferral coatings of yester-year that doesn't have the life span or performance of nikasil. They may be quoting the price of that pseudo-nikasil coating.

It's interesting to see from a manufacturing standpoint every iteration of the alusil, now lokasil or the variants, since the cylinder itself doesn't need any re-working once it's formed save the acid etching. Then the pistons are coatings through a plasma vapor disposition process or other micro/nano coatings. From an OE's point of view, that makes for a REALLY cheap solution that has adequate quality. And as long as the engine's cooling system has enough capacity, they seem to last quite a long time, but no where as long as nikasil or a ductile iron liner for that matter.

The going rate in large quantities from germany is about $50/cyl. It's double that here in the states, and that's in large quantities. For a few one off sets, it's around $200/cyl. It's no secret that I use Millennium Technologies, and they are the most expensive in the industry, but hell, who can beat a lifetime warranty.

BTW, it's the aluminum and machining that costs the big bucks, considering a cylinder starts out as a 15-18 pounds then ends up from 1 to 3 lbs (3.8 RSR cylinders being the heaviest). If aluminum prices would ever go back down, I could make the prices really scream, but it doesn't look like I have much of a choice, being there's only one aluminum press that can extrude my forging in all of North American :-)

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Old 02-10-2005, 06:12 AM
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cnavarro, in that article they say that nikasil is a little weak to fuel that contains a large amount of sulfer. Does that mean that only the cheaper manufactering techniques of nikasil are weak to it, or just nikasil in general?
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Old 02-10-2005, 09:09 AM
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Exactly, just the cheaper processes of it have problems, like some oe dirt bikes for example. Millennium Technologies' nikasil (nickel silicon carbide) has been proven to exceed the quality of the original german platings and holds up to everything that can be thrown at it (hence their lifetime warranty). I believe it was one of the cheaper processes (or incompatible process altogether) that has caused the sulfur problems, as in the bwm blocks that had short lives of 20-30k.

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Old 02-10-2005, 09:54 AM
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sounds like oversell of an overpriced process to me.
Old 02-10-2005, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by snowman
sounds like oversell of an overpriced process to me.
Maybe, but at least he's balsy enough to defend his product. Although now my interest has been sparked, and since the ausil process is fairly straight forward, I'd like to know exactly how these nikasil process's are different. (not saying you should take the time cnavarro, but if someone can point to an article i'd really appreciate it)
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Old 02-14-2005, 09:36 PM
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I'd be more than happy to break down the whole process over the phone. It's easier than writing a small dissertation :-)

Charles Navarro
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Old 02-15-2005, 05:30 PM
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Charles, I have said it once and I will say it again.

When I blow up or wear out my stock 930 cylinders I will be buying my replacements from you.

Old 02-15-2005, 05:40 PM
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With a 10:1 or higher price differential that buys you absolutly nothing, WHY?
Old 02-18-2005, 08:20 PM
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Snowman, you need to dig a little deeper...



I can't find the price sheets from US Chrome or the outfit in Canada that does bombadier(sp?) either, but they are in line with Millennium's pricing.

And yes, there's quite a bit more work manufacturing a billet cylinder from a solid 18# slug of aluminum rather than machining a casting.

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Last edited by cnavarro; 02-19-2005 at 05:25 AM..
Old 02-19-2005, 05:07 AM
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