okay, case sealer again

[stevepaa]

Dirko is a non hardening sealant.
So if you use the stated materials in those position you should probably tighten thru bolts first because the 574 will set up soon.

[Vonzipper]

I would be hard pressed to use dirko in areas other than the o-ring and the case

[john walker's workshop]

[thor]

well ,

finally i'm a bit lost...

At the beginning the factory used 574 sealant.
But It seems taht the dirko can be used.

I know this elring sealant .
Then I 'm rebuilding my engine and i will close my block very soon .

Which sealant must I use ? can I use only dirko or only 574 ?

thanks guys.



jérôme

[wilke3169]

I am as confused as Thor. Was there a conclusion here? MY case is ready to be sealed and I would like to know the "best" product to use. Did John ever give a final answer? This could be the Million Dollar question.

[john walker's workshop]

as you can see, there are a lot of opinions and favorites. the yamabond stuff has quite a following. i've been using dirko successfully, and never tried yamabond, but it sounds just as good, so i wouldn't hesitate to use it. thousands of folks also use 574 and swear by it, but i had a couple of issues with it where it anarobicized early, causing a thick layer to remain between the case halves, resulting in a #8 bearing leak, so i'm uneasy using it again. i just feel that it's a tad unpredictable. there have been a few instances of that here too, one recently, so i'm not alone.

[stevepaa]

good summation by John. I used loctite 518 and am still assembling my motor. won't have the final answer on no oil leak until a month.

[thor]

thanks a lot. It seems that dirko is good sealant for our purposes.
I will use dirko sealant. The shop where I go preconise it without any doubt.
Concerning the n°8 bearing o'ring, do you preconise to use curil or maybe dirko is ok for all ?
jerôme

[wilke3169]

I just ordered Dirko from Pelican. 13.00 and change. So that is a source for those that may be looking.

[john walker's workshop]

a light smear of a dirko style, non-hardening sealant in the case bore where the #8 o-ring would contact is good insurance against a leak. in a perfect world, the o-ring alone would be fine, but why chance it. it's just something i decided to do after 30 years of dealing with these things.

[thor]

sometimes mechanic is very esoteric

[snowman]

YOu guys are an engineers nightmare. Not to mentiion a real techs nightmare. Engineers and real techs do things based on real data, real facts, not what they think may or may not work properly, but what DOES work properly, based on real FACTS not hearsay and diy guesses. If a silicone seal is supposed to seal the case, treat it like a silicone seal is supposed to be treated, or do you REALLY know better than the people who designed the engine???

If experience has shown a design to be deficient, then an accepted practice solution should be used, not a seat of the pants guess, that actually may make things worse.

I have reviewed an endless set of tech "solutions" that DO NOT WORK, yet the techs swore by them. I have found that in over 30 years, that the techs may have uncovered a problem, yet they made it worse in trying to solve it wihtout proper technical training. GOOD techs did solve problems, but they did it by using the same standards the the engineers use, not seat of the pants solutions. The other techs usually were more of a problem than a solution.

If you don't understand the problem, say so, state your observations clearly, very clearly and repeadidly, then someone who DOES understand the problem can come with a real FIX that WORKS, all the time. Not all engineers understand how to fix things so still feel free to offer what you think may work, but be prepared to learn why an engineer may not think the solution you came up with is good, ie keep an open mind, learn as much as possible, about REAL engineering, then you can teach an engineer something usefull. AND BOTTOM LINE, SOLVE THE PROBLEM, not add to it.

[Vonzipper]

Originally posted by john walker's workshop
a light smear of a dirko style, non-hardening sealant in the case bore where the #8 o-ring would contact is good insurance against a leak. in a perfect world, the o-ring alone would be fine, but why chance it. it's just something i decided to do after 30 years of dealing with these things.

I would agree with john on this, it's just good insurance. John, do you use dirko on the case half's as well as the #8 bearing o-ring?? I have always used dirko with K2 or 574 but not as the primary sealer, any thoughts??

[adomakin]

so whats your view on sealing the case then snowman?

[snowman]

Well to start with I would not do exactly what is NOT recommended by ALL mfgs of silicone o rings to fix the problem.

I do not have the time and resourses necessary to properly investigate the source of this "problem", which may not even exhist if all proper proceedures are followed to begin with.

If this part did not leak from the factory, then chances are that it will not leak if properly maintained and serviced. If however the factory parts leaked, and I do not know if this one did, then there may be a design defect and a workaround and or solution may be required. IF this particular part is somehow prone to damage due to normal service, then a solution may be required.

BUT to do exactly what every o ring manufacturer and designer says you should NOT do is not good practice, and is an other problem waiting to happen.

If an O ring is not sealing, why not? Fix the real problem, do not add a new unknown to the mix. If the sealing surfaces are all damaged, repair them. If they cannot be repaired, is there another solution that does not use the o ring? If there is GET RID OF THE O RINGf and use the alternate solution, not a so called solution that every educated person says should never be used.

If the correct solution dosen't seem to work for you, find out why not. You may not REALLY know how to install an O ring. Sometimes the reasons are very subtle. but also very improtant. A correct, real, solution, ALWAYS works better than something no one understands.

END of lecture. Really didn't mean to start a lecture, it just happened.

Also this kind of "fix" is NOT insurance, its two wrongs trying to make it right.

And as a practical end to this problem it usually goes like this: Life is short, we have much bigger problems and fish to fry, it seems to work, even though we know it might bite us in the butt later, it gets out of the woods today, so SHIP IT.

And thats exactly how sh=t happens and we suffer for it later as in exploding gas tanks in pintos.

[Vonzipper]

Jack,

I know from using both elring and Porsche o-rings that sometime there my be some slight inconstancies in the o-rings themselves, maybe from manufacture date to temp when produced, I'm not talking about a major difference, on my latest motor a 3.0 the seal looked great and the seal surface was perfect, I used a "as john puts it light smear" of Dow 111, after about 5000mi I got a small amount of oil at the seal area. not real happy but not enough to R&R, i do however like john's idea of a small amount of Dirko in that area, heck, it's worth a try....


Scott

[snowman]

And the " solution" makes an o ring, even if its good, fail.

[Vonzipper]

When I took apart my motor porsche had used a gasketcinch type of sealer, the motor was a virgin and the oring area was covered in sealer, go figure

[john walker's workshop]

go figure. snowman, you do what you see fit. no substitute for experience. like i said previously, "in a perfect world", the o-ring alone would be sufficient. we're talking some fairly old parts here, if you think about it, often ones that have been apart a few times, and they are not pristine any more.

[john walker's workshop]

lets not forget the thread that morphed into this one, pictures and all.

Loctite 574 thickness